11 Apr
2013
11 Apr
'13
4:53 p.m.
I'm curious about the future implications of big data, sharing and employer
profiling.
Suppose I said on the publicly searchable google list that I love drinking
Coca-Cola more than Pepsi.
Suppose I hacked a Coca-Cola jacket etc. and said I just "wasn't into"
Pepsi.
Now suppose that that thread was the first thing to show up in a list of
googleable searches for my name.
If I were to interview at a dot com for a developer position and that firm
had close business associations with Pepsi but not Coca-Cola, then I might
not get hired.
Or if big data became very powerful, a potential health insurer could see
that I drank Coca-Cola, and it's less healthy than Pepsi, and charge me
higher rates, rates as high as someone who has severe diabetes. How would
that go?
So I know that this list is open, and I'm joining it knowing it's
transparent, but I'm wondering how much more we will have to edit our
opinions in the future in order to remain reputable or employable.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Liz Henry <lizhenry(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Whoa.... It's a mailing list you sign up for of
your own free will isn't
it? At http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss. Where it has a
link to a public archive on the web. Using totally standard mailing list
software.
I think some cultures have an expectation of openness, and some of default
privacy. Hackerspaces seem to tend to frown on things like camera
surveillance, but to default to a lot of free/open source tech and culture
standards otherwise where there is a lot of transparency.
There could always be another, private, sudo room mailing list, you just
would have to set another one up.
The language about "list of members not being visible to other than list
members" is about looking at the full list of people subscribed.
It sounds like a) you made a mistake b) it might be good for the mail
admin to add something more clear to the standard sign up email to
emphasize the archives are public.
Cheers,
- Liz
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Eddan Katz <eddan(a)eddan.com> wrote:
also, before we continue along the path of
discussion, i would suggest
steering clear of strong incriminating language being used to describe
things that simply have no support in the law. this is an important
discussion - i think we'll all be best off if we take it down a notch.
On Apr 11, 2013, at 10:17 AM, "Anon195714" <anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
--
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Liz Henry
lhenry(a)mozilla.com
lizhenry(a)gmail.com
I've taken this email off the sudo list and added Anthony and Eddan and
Aestetix to it for reasons that will be obvious to them when they read
this.
Here's the cut-and-paste of Tracy's remark on this thread:
"Sudoers,
Why does our discussion list have to be published on the internet? I
don't personally want it to be that public. Who decided it should be
done that way, and is there another option?
Tracy"
So now there are TWO of us who DO NOT want our EMAIL to be fed to the
GOOGLE.
And YEAH there's another option, which is to NOT publish our stuff to
the internet. That's what the fucking WIKI is for. Email by definition
is not that.
It was never disclosed to me, and I never gave consent, to EMAIL being
published to GOOGLE. Email is not a blog, a wiki, or a website, any
more than a conference call is a radio broadcast. How would you like it
if you discovered that your telephone calls were being broadcast on the
radio, eh?
So let's be really clear about this: I feel VIOLATED by this in a most
intimate and personal way. I was deceived by a failure to disclose a
material fact. Had I been informed that this stuff was going to be
published to the internet and made searchable by email address, I would
have created a compartmentalized address specifically for this purpose,
and used that address, not a personal address that I use for other
purposes. I routinely compartmentalize things for security purposes, it
takes only minor effort to do.
INFORMED CONSENT IS A RIGHT, NOT A PRIVILEGE, and there is no getting
out of it by way of fine print or any other such garbage.
And being violated is not a joke. Ha ha ha, someone put LSD (or Roofies
for that matter) in your soda, ha ha ha, the guy you slept with last
night had every disease in the book but he didn't tell you, ha ha
fucking ha, if you don't like salmonella don't eat the chicken at the
barbeque, we all like salmonella what's wrong with you if you don't? Oh
look, there's a VEGAN, let's slip him some LARD in his beans, ha ha ha.
Sorry y'all, that's not funny, it doesn't wash, it doesn't rinse, and
I'm fucking sick of spin.
Holy fucking shit, I just pulled an allnighter for work, I'm about to
try to get four hours' sleep and then go into San Francisco and move
EFF's telephone service and about 50 phones, and THIS comes up.
Believe me when I say this is way past my limit, and I am so fucking mad
right now that you don't even want to hear the first three metaphors for
it that come to mind.
So do whatever it takes to disconnect this mailing list from Google,
NOW, and put this on the meeting agenda for next Wednesday, and you'd
better believe I'm going to raise a fucking stink that's going to make a
den of skunks look like a bouquet of roses if this doesn't get done.
This shit totally puts the lie to every ounce of anarchist rhetoric I've
ever heard around here.
-G.
=====
On 13-04-11-Thu 9:42 AM, Romy Ilano wrote:
> In this case what are the practical solutions for your / non privacy?
>
> I'm curious. There is a lot of character assassination going on
between
companies where people hire trolls to harass victims and leave a
trail of bad results in google searches
>
> I wouldn't say it happened to me but maybe!
>
> ---
>
> Romy Ilano
> Founder of Snowyla
> http://www.snowyla.com
> romy(a)snowyla.com
>
> On Apr 11, 2013, at 9:24, Anon195714 <anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Oh Fuck.
>>
>> Fucking fuckity fuck.
>>
>> Fucking surveillance monster on the rampage.
>>
>> OK, time for me to change my fucking email address on the server, and
>> say Fuck a few more times just to get it out of my system.
>>
>> Thanks for the heads' up.
>>
>> Anyone here who believes in a deity is welcome to join me in praying
for
>> Google's servers to melt into little
puddles of colorful metallic
>> swirls, seething & bubbling on their server room floor.
>>
>> One more thing: Putting this list on the fucking Google was NON
>> CONSENSUAL and YES I am going to bring it up at a meeting, and if
>> there's any way to scrub my stuff off there, it's going to get done.
>>
>> -G.
>>
>>
>> =====
>>
>>
>> On 13-04-11-Thu 9:18 AM, Hol Gaskill wrote:
>>> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=anon195714
>>>
>>>
>>> Apr 11, 2013 07:57:08 AM, lizhenry(a)gmail.com wrote:
>>> Sorry Romy that I sounded harsh and unclear. I'd be happy to talk
any time.
>>> Anon195714, it is a public mailing
list and its archives are public.
>>>> See http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss and click on
the link for Archives.
>>>>
>>>> - liz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:08 AM, Anon195714
anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How is it that this EMAIL list is "Googleable"?
>>>
>>> Is this being posted to a website or something else that has a URL
>>> on it?
>>>
>>> Or has Google figured out a way to spy on email beyond what it
>>> already does with gmail?
>>>
>>> Sheesh.
>>>
>>> -G.
>>> "Consume! Obey!"
>>> "Big Data is Watching You."
>>>
>>>
>>> =====
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13-04-10-Wed 12:51 PM, Liz Henry
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What are you
>>> talking about? This sounds completely, completely bizarre to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> I can't remember if you and I have met, but I hope that if we
>>> do meet, you won't approach me as a family member. Why are
you
>>> quasi-introducing this person
to an entire public mailing
>>> list? With these caveats? It seems not only weird, but
>>> outright rude, both to Orange and to the sudo community.
>>>
>>> Also, are you aware this is a public mailing list, perfectly
>>> visible and googleable?
>>>
>>>
>>> Really....
>>> whoever you are you just showed your ass.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Romy
>>> Ilano romy(a)snowyla.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey here is one of the film events that
>>> Michael Orange from top 10 social is presenting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
https://www.facebook.com/events/563556023675662/?notif_t=plan_user_invited
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael's also working with the Oakland Library as
>>> well,so I'll mention the history wki people from
>>> sudoroom are there!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> this probably isn't necessary for anyone here...
>>> but in case one or two people gets the temptation:
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Michael Orange is an all around good guy--please
>>> treat him well, minimize over the top business plans,
>>> "industry type behavior", and approach him as you
>>> would a family member. If we talk to him the wrong
way
>>
it will be a smear on my reputation and his opinion
>> matters a lot to me. =D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>> Liz Henry
>>
>> lhenry(a)mozilla.com
>> lizhenry(a)gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>> Liz Henry
>>> lhenry(a)mozilla.com
>> lizhenry(a)gmail.com
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
11 Apr
11 Apr
5:01 p.m.
New subject: Getting violated and putting a stop to it.
I think most people worry about this way too much. People who hire people
are generally busy, they don't have time to root around everywhere on the
internet. Also most people aren't very good at Googling, surprisingly
enough. Also, your particular scenereo is absurd - if you're a good
developer you're in high demand.
I would say, be on the internet a lot, use a lot of fake names, trust that
volume will drown out particulars.
On Apr 11, 2013 4:53 PM, "Romy Ilano" <romy(a)snowyla.com> wrote:
I'm curious about the future implications of big
data, sharing and
employer profiling.
Suppose I said on the publicly searchable google list that I love drinking
Coca-Cola more than Pepsi.
Suppose I hacked a Coca-Cola jacket etc. and said I just "wasn't into"
Pepsi.
Now suppose that that thread was the first thing to show up in a list of
googleable searches for my name.
If I were to interview at a dot com for a developer position and that firm
had close business associations with Pepsi but not Coca-Cola, then I might
not get hired.
Or if big data became very powerful, a potential health insurer could see
that I drank Coca-Cola, and it's less healthy than Pepsi, and charge me
higher rates, rates as high as someone who has severe diabetes. How would
that go?
So I know that this list is open, and I'm joining it knowing it's
transparent, but I'm wondering how much more we will have to edit our
opinions in the future in order to remain reputable or employable.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Liz Henry <lizhenry(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Whoa.... It's a mailing list you sign up for
of your own free will isn't
it? At http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss. Where it has a
link to a public archive on the web. Using totally standard mailing list
software.
I think some cultures have an expectation of openness, and some of
default privacy. Hackerspaces seem to tend to frown on things like camera
surveillance, but to default to a lot of free/open source tech and culture
standards otherwise where there is a lot of transparency.
There could always be another, private, sudo room mailing list, you just
would have to set another one up.
The language about "list of members not being visible to other than list
members" is about looking at the full list of people subscribed.
It sounds like a) you made a mistake b) it might be good for the mail
admin to add something more clear to the standard sign up email to
emphasize the archives are public.
Cheers,
- Liz
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Eddan Katz <eddan(a)eddan.com> wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
also, before we continue along the path of
discussion, i would suggest
steering clear of strong incriminating language being used to describe
things that simply have no support in the law. this is an important
discussion - i think we'll all be best off if we take it down a notch.
On Apr 11, 2013, at 10:17 AM, "Anon195714" <anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
--
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Liz Henry
lhenry(a)mozilla.com
lizhenry(a)gmail.com
I've taken this email off the sudo list and added Anthony and Eddan and
Aestetix to it for reasons that will be obvious to them when they read
this.
Here's the cut-and-paste of Tracy's remark on this thread:
"Sudoers,
Why does our discussion list have to be published on the internet? I
don't personally want it to be that public. Who decided it should be
done that way, and is there another option?
Tracy"
So now there are TWO of us who DO NOT want our EMAIL to be fed to the
GOOGLE.
And YEAH there's another option, which is to NOT publish our stuff to
the internet. That's what the fucking WIKI is for. Email by
definition
is not that.
It was never disclosed to me, and I never gave consent, to EMAIL being
published to GOOGLE. Email is not a blog, a wiki, or a website, any
more than a conference call is a radio broadcast. How would you like
it
if you discovered that your telephone calls were
being broadcast on the
radio, eh?
So let's be really clear about this: I feel VIOLATED by this in a most
intimate and personal way. I was deceived by a failure to disclose a
material fact. Had I been informed that this stuff was going to be
published to the internet and made searchable by email address, I would
have created a compartmentalized address specifically for this purpose,
and used that address, not a personal address that I use for other
purposes. I routinely compartmentalize things for security purposes,
it
takes only minor effort to do.
INFORMED CONSENT IS A RIGHT, NOT A PRIVILEGE, and there is no getting
out of it by way of fine print or any other such garbage.
And being violated is not a joke. Ha ha ha, someone put LSD (or
Roofies
for that matter) in your soda, ha ha ha, the guy
you slept with last
night had every disease in the book but he didn't tell you, ha ha
fucking ha, if you don't like salmonella don't eat the chicken at the
barbeque, we all like salmonella what's wrong with you if you don't?
Oh
look, there's a VEGAN, let's slip him
some LARD in his beans, ha ha ha.
Sorry y'all, that's not funny, it doesn't wash, it doesn't rinse, and
I'm fucking sick of spin.
Holy fucking shit, I just pulled an allnighter for work, I'm about to
try to get four hours' sleep and then go into San Francisco and move
EFF's telephone service and about 50 phones, and THIS comes up.
Believe me when I say this is way past my limit, and I am so fucking
mad
right now that you don't even want to hear
the first three metaphors
for
it that come to mind.
So do whatever it takes to disconnect this mailing list from Google,
NOW, and put this on the meeting agenda for next Wednesday, and you'd
better believe I'm going to raise a fucking stink that's going to make
a
den of skunks look like a bouquet of roses if
this doesn't get done.
This shit totally puts the lie to every ounce of anarchist rhetoric
I've
ever heard around here.
-G.
=====
On 13-04-11-Thu 9:42 AM, Romy Ilano wrote:
> In this case what are the practical solutions for your / non privacy?
>
> I'm curious. There is a lot of character assassination going on
between
companies where people hire trolls to harass victims and leave a
trail of bad results in google searches
>
> I wouldn't say it happened to me but maybe!
>
> ---
>
> Romy Ilano
> Founder of Snowyla
> http://www.snowyla.com
> romy(a)snowyla.com
>
> On Apr 11, 2013, at 9:24, Anon195714 <anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
>> Oh Fuck.
>>
>> Fucking fuckity fuck.
>>
>> Fucking surveillance monster on the rampage.
>>
>> OK, time for me to change my fucking email address on the server, and
>> say Fuck a few more times just to get it out of my system.
>>
>> Thanks for the heads' up.
>>
>> Anyone here who believes in a deity is welcome to join me in praying
for
>> Google's servers to melt into little
puddles of colorful metallic
>> swirls, seething & bubbling on their server room floor.
>>
>> One more thing: Putting this list on the fucking Google was NON
>> CONSENSUAL and YES I am going to bring it up at a meeting, and if
>> there's any way to scrub my stuff off there, it's going to get done.
>>
>> -G.
>>
>>
>> =====
>>
>>
>> On 13-04-11-Thu 9:18 AM, Hol Gaskill wrote:
>>> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=anon195714
>>>
>>>
>>> Apr 11, 2013 07:57:08 AM, lizhenry(a)gmail.com wrote:
>>> Sorry Romy that I sounded harsh and unclear. I'd be happy to talk
any time.
>>> Anon195714, it is a public mailing
list and its archives are public.
>>>> See http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss and click on
the link for Archives.
>>>>
>>>> - liz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:08 AM, Anon195714
anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How is it that this EMAIL list is "Googleable"?
>>>
>>> Is this being posted to a website or something else that has a URL
>>> on it?
>>>
>>> Or has Google figured out a way to spy on email beyond what it
>>> already does with gmail?
>>>
>>> Sheesh.
>>>
>>> -G.
>>> "Consume! Obey!"
>>> "Big Data is Watching You."
>>>
>>>
>>> =====
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13-04-10-Wed 12:51 PM, Liz Henry
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What are you
>>> talking about? This sounds completely, completely bizarre to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> I can't remember if you and I have met, but I hope that if
we
>>> do meet, you won't
approach me as a family member. Why are
you
>>> quasi-introducing this person
to an entire public mailing
>>> list? With these caveats? It seems not only weird, but
>>> outright rude, both to Orange and to the sudo community.
>>>
>>> Also, are you aware this is a public mailing list, perfectly
>>> visible and googleable?
>>>
>>>
>>> Really....
>>> whoever you are you just showed your ass.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Romy
>>> Ilano romy(a)snowyla.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey here is one of the film events that
>>> Michael Orange from top 10 social is presenting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
https://www.facebook.com/events/563556023675662/?notif_t=plan_user_invited
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael's also working with the Oakland Library as
>>> well,so I'll mention the history wki people from
>>> sudoroom are there!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> this probably isn't necessary for anyone here...
>>> but in case one or two people gets the temptation:
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Michael Orange is an all around good guy--please
>>> treat him well, minimize over the top business
plans,
>>> "industry type
behavior", and approach him as you
>>> would a family member. If we talk to him the wrong
way
>>> it will be a smear on
my reputation and his opinion
>>> matters a lot to me. =D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>> Liz Henry
>>>
>>> lhenry(a)mozilla.com
>>> lizhenry(a)gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>>> Liz Henry
>>>> lhenry(a)mozilla.com
>>> lizhenry(a)gmail.com
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
5:17 p.m.
New subject: Getting violated and putting a stop to it.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
I've been mostly avoiding this due to lack of time, but I'm going to
jump in here because this topic is important:
I'd actually argue that people don't worry about it enough. Given a
number of recent issues, it's kind of scary how much a government or
corporation can piece together based on previously made assessments.
What we should be worried about is not necessarily what a hiring
employer might find, but what the company they outsource their social
networking background check to will find. Don't even get me started
about all the news that's coming out about what DHS was monitoring
during Occupy.
I think this is an important conversation: what does privacy mean in
2013, and how much of our own transparency do we get to decide? I do
agree with Schneier to a large extent that there's a control issue at
hand. Names matter for some things (that's a longer conversation), but
in terms of data mining, there are many, many ways to link information
together. If you're curious for more, take a look at the Facebook
shadow profiles that have been revealed during a lawsuit in Ireland.
If nothing else, we might want to ask questions about what data we
have online, and how it is being used. How can we control it better?
Will putting robots.txt be good enough, or do we also need to put a
mailing list license on our mailman to make sure it's only used for
educational purposes? Etc etc.
Just food for thought.
Hail Eris,
aestetix
On 4/11/13 5:01 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:
I think most people worry about this way too much.
People who hire
people are generally busy, they don't have time to root around
everywhere on the internet. Also most people aren't very good at
Googling, surprisingly enough. Also, your particular scenereo is
absurd - if you're a good developer you're in high demand. I would
say, be on the internet a lot, use a lot of fake names, trust that
volume will drown out particulars.
On Apr 11, 2013 4:53 PM, "Romy Ilano" <romy(a)snowyla.com
<mailto:romy@snowyla.com>> wrote:
I'm curious about the future implications of big data, sharing and
employer profiling.
Suppose I said on the publicly searchable google list that I love
drinking Coca-Cola more than Pepsi. Suppose I hacked a Coca-Cola
jacket etc. and said I just "wasn't into" Pepsi.
Now suppose that that thread was the first thing to show up in a
list of googleable searches for my name.
If I were to interview at a dot com for a developer position and
that firm had close business associations with Pepsi but not
Coca-Cola, then I might not get hired.
Or if big data became very powerful, a potential health insurer
could see that I drank Coca-Cola, and it's less healthy than
Pepsi, and charge me higher rates, rates as high as someone who has
severe diabetes. How would that go?
So I know that this list is open, and I'm joining it knowing it's
transparent, but I'm wondering how much more we will have to edit
our opinions in the future in order to remain reputable or
employable.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Liz Henry <lizhenry(a)gmail.com
<mailto:lizhenry@gmail.com>> wrote:
Whoa.... It's a mailing list you sign up for of your own free will
isn't it? At http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss.
Where it has a link to a public archive on the web. Using totally
standard mailing list software.
I think some cultures have an expectation of openness, and some of
default privacy. Hackerspaces seem to tend to frown on things like
camera surveillance, but to default to a lot of free/open source
tech and culture standards otherwise where there is a lot of
transparency.
There could always be another, private, sudo room mailing list, you
just would have to set another one up.
The language about "list of members not being visible to other than
list members" is about looking at the full list of people
subscribed.
It sounds like a) you made a mistake b) it might be good for the
mail admin to add something more clear to the standard sign up
email to emphasize the archives are public.
Cheers,
- Liz
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Eddan Katz <eddan(a)eddan.com
<mailto:eddan@eddan.com>> wrote:
also, before we continue along the path of discussion, i would
suggest steering clear of strong incriminating language being used
to describe things that simply have no support in the law. this is
an important discussion - i think we'll all be best off if we take
it down a notch.
On Apr 11, 2013, at 10:17 AM, "Anon195714"
<anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net <mailto:anon195714@sbcglobal.net>>
wrote:
I've taken this email off the sudo list and added Anthony
and Eddan and
Aestetix to it for reasons that will be obvious
to them
when they read
this.
Here's the cut-and-paste of Tracy's remark on this thread:
"Sudoers,
Why does our discussion list have to be published on the
internet? I
don't personally want it to be that public.
Who decided
it should be
done that way, and is there another option?
Tracy"
So now there are TWO of us who DO NOT want our EMAIL to be
fed to the
GOOGLE.
And YEAH there's another option, which is to NOT publish
our stuff to
the internet. That's what the fucking WIKI
is for. Email
by definition
is not that.
It was never disclosed to me, and I never gave consent, to
EMAIL being
published to GOOGLE. Email is not a blog, a
wiki, or a
website, any
more than a conference call is a radio broadcast.
How
would you like it
if you discovered that your telephone calls were
being
broadcast on the
radio, eh?
So let's be really clear about this: I feel VIOLATED by
this in a most
intimate and personal way. I was deceived by a
failure to
disclose a
material fact. Had I been informed that this
stuff was
going to be
published to the internet and made searchable by
email
address, I would
have created a compartmentalized address
specifically for
this purpose,
and used that address, not a personal address
that I use
for other
purposes. I routinely compartmentalize things
for
security purposes, it
takes only minor effort to do.
INFORMED CONSENT IS A RIGHT, NOT A PRIVILEGE, and there is
no getting
out of it by way of fine print or any other such
garbage.
And being violated is not a joke. Ha ha ha, someone put
LSD (or Roofies
for that matter) in your soda, ha ha ha, the guy
you slept
with last
night had every disease in the book but he
didn't tell
you, ha ha
fucking ha, if you don't like salmonella
don't eat the
chicken at the
barbeque, we all like salmonella what's wrong
with you if
you don't? Oh
look, there's a VEGAN, let's slip him
some LARD in his
beans, ha ha ha.
Sorry y'all, that's not funny, it
doesn't wash, it doesn't
rinse, and
I'm fucking sick of spin.
Holy fucking shit, I just pulled an allnighter for work,
I'm about to
try to get four hours' sleep and then go into
San
Francisco and move
EFF's telephone service and about 50 phones,
and THIS
comes up.
Believe me when I say this is way past my limit, and I am
so fucking mad
right now that you don't even want to hear
the first three
metaphors for
it that come to mind.
So do whatever it takes to disconnect this mailing list
from Google,
NOW, and put this on the meeting agenda for next
Wednesday, and you'd
better believe I'm going to raise a fucking
stink that's
going to make a
den of skunks look like a bouquet of roses if
this doesn't
get done.
This shit totally puts the lie to every ounce of anarchist
rhetoric I've
ever heard around here.
-G.
=====
On 13-04-11-Thu 9:42 AM, Romy Ilano wrote:
> In this case what are the practical solutions for your /
non privacy?
>
> I'm curious. There is a lot of character assassination
going on between
companies where people hire trolls to harass
victims and leave a trail of bad results in google searches
>
> I wouldn't say it happened to me but maybe!
>
> ---
>
> Romy Ilano Founder of Snowyla http://www.snowyla.com
> romy(a)snowyla.com <mailto:romy@snowyla.com>
>
> On Apr 11, 2013, at 9:24, Anon195714
<anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net
<mailto:anon195714@sbcglobal.net>>
wrote:
>
>> Oh Fuck.
>>
>> Fucking fuckity fuck.
>>
>> Fucking surveillance monster on the rampage.
>>
>> OK, time for me to change my fucking email address on
the server, and
>> say Fuck a few more times just to get it
out of my system.
>>
>> Thanks for the heads' up.
>>
>> Anyone here who believes in a deity is welcome to join
me in praying for
>> Google's servers to melt into little
puddles of colorful
metallic
>> swirls, seething & bubbling on their
server room floor.
>>
>> One more thing: Putting this list on the fucking Google
was NON
>> CONSENSUAL and YES I am going to bring it
up at a
meeting, and if
>> there's any way to scrub my stuff off
there, it's going
to get done.
>>
>> -G.
>>
>>
>> =====
>>
>>
>> On 13-04-11-Thu 9:18 AM, Hol Gaskill wrote:
>>> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=anon195714
>>>
>>>
>>> Apr 11, 2013 07:57:08 AM, lizhenry(a)gmail.com
<mailto:lizhenry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sorry Romy that I sounded harsh and
unclear. I'd be
happy to talk any time.
>>> Anon195714, it is a public mailing
list and its
archives are public.
and click on the link for
Archives.
>>>>
>>>> - liz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:08 AM, Anon195714
anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net <mailto:anon195714@sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How is it that this EMAIL list is "Googleable"?
>>>
>>> Is this being posted to a website or something else
that has a URL
>>> on it?
>>>
>>> Or has Google figured out a way to spy on email
beyond what it
>>> already does with gmail?
>>>
>>> Sheesh.
>>>
>>> -G. "Consume! Obey!" "Big Data is Watching You."
>>>
>>>
>>> =====
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13-04-10-Wed 12:51 PM, Liz Henry wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What are you talking about? This sounds completely,
completely bizarre
to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> I can't remember if you and I have met, but I
hope that if we
>>> do meet, you won't approach me as
a family
member. Why are you
>>> quasi-introducing this person to an
entire
public mailing
>>> list? With these caveats? It seems
not only
weird, but
>>> outright rude, both to Orange and to
the sudo
community.
>>>
>>> Also, are you aware this is a public mailing
list, perfectly
>>> visible and googleable?
>>>
>>>
>>> Really.... whoever you are you just showed your ass.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Romy Ilano
>>> romy(a)snowyla.com <mailto:romy@snowyla.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey here is one of the film events that Michael Orange
>>> from top 10 social is
presenting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
https://www.facebook.com/events/563556023675662/?notif_t=plan_user_invited
>>
>>>
>>> Michael's also working with the Oakland
Library as
>>> well,so I'll mention the history
wki
people from
>>> sudoroom are there!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> this probably isn't necessary for anyone
here...
>>> but in case one or two people gets
the
temptation:
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Michael Orange is an all around good
guy--please
>>> treat him well, minimize over the top
business plans,
>>> "industry type behavior",
and approach
him as you
>>> would a family member. If we talk to
him the wrong way
>>> it will be a smear on my reputation
and
his opinion
>>>> matters a lot to me. =D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
<mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Liz Henry
>>>>
>>>> lhenry(a)mozilla.com <mailto:lhenry@mozilla.com>
>>>> lizhenry(a)gmail.com <mailto:lizhenry@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
<mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Liz Henry
>>>>> lhenry(a)mozilla.com <mailto:lhenry@mozilla.com>
>>>> lizhenry(a)gmail.com <mailto:lizhenry@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
<mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
--
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Liz Henry
lhenry(a)mozilla.com <mailto:lhenry@mozilla.com> lizhenry(a)gmail.com
<mailto:lizhenry@gmail.com>
_______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
<mailto:sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
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12 Apr
12 Apr
5:30 p.m.
New subject: Getting violated and putting a stop to it.
another version of this problem though has more acutely dangerous implications - such as
cyberstalking, cyber-bullying, gender reclassification, witness-protection and other
sensitive defensive circumstances.
the big problem that remains to be solved, as far as i understand it, is the ability to
have at Sudo Room an identity sufficiently separate from your personally identifiable self
to enable you to be persistently sudo-nym-ous throughout all potentially recordable
interactions in the various fora that make up the community.
sent from eddan.com
On Apr 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I think most people worry about this way too much.
People who hire people are generally busy, they don't have time to root around
everywhere on the internet. Also most people aren't very good at Googling,
surprisingly enough. Also, your particular scenereo is absurd - if you're a good
developer you're in high demand.
I would say, be on the internet a lot, use a lot of fake names, trust that volume will
drown out particulars.
On Apr 11, 2013 4:53 PM, "Romy Ilano" <romy(a)snowyla.com> wrote:
I'm curious about the future implications of big data, sharing and employer
profiling.
Suppose I said on the publicly searchable google list that I love drinking Coca-Cola more
than Pepsi.
Suppose I hacked a Coca-Cola jacket etc. and said I just "wasn't into"
Pepsi.
Now suppose that that thread was the first thing to show up in a list of googleable
searches for my name.
If I were to interview at a dot com for a developer position and that firm had close
business associations with Pepsi but not Coca-Cola, then I might not get hired.
Or if big data became very powerful, a potential health insurer could see that I drank
Coca-Cola, and it's less healthy than Pepsi, and charge me higher rates, rates as high
as someone who has severe diabetes. How would that go?
So I know that this list is open, and I'm joining it knowing it's transparent,
but I'm wondering how much more we will have to edit our opinions in the future in
order to remain reputable or employable.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Liz Henry <lizhenry(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Whoa.... It's a mailing list you sign up for of your own free will isn't it? At
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss. Where it has a link to a public archive
on the web. Using totally standard mailing list software.
I think some cultures have an expectation of openness, and some of default privacy.
Hackerspaces seem to tend to frown on things like camera surveillance, but to default to a
lot of free/open source tech and culture standards otherwise where there is a lot of
transparency.
There could always be another, private, sudo room mailing list, you just would have to
set another one up.
The language about "list of members not being visible to other than list
members" is about looking at the full list of people subscribed.
It sounds like a) you made a mistake b) it might be good for the mail admin to add
something more clear to the standard sign up email to emphasize the archives are public.
Cheers,
- Liz
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Eddan Katz <eddan(a)eddan.com> wrote:
also, before we continue along the path of discussion, i would suggest steering clear of
strong incriminating language being used to describe things that simply have no support in
the law. this is an important discussion - i think we'll all be best off if we take it
down a notch.
On Apr 11, 2013, at 10:17 AM, "Anon195714" <anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
I've taken this email off the sudo list and added Anthony and Eddan and
Aestetix to it for reasons that will be obvious to them when they read
this.
Here's the cut-and-paste of Tracy's remark on this thread:
"Sudoers,
Why does our discussion list have to be published on the internet? I
don't personally want it to be that public. Who decided it should be
done that way, and is there another option?
Tracy"
So now there are TWO of us who DO NOT want our EMAIL to be fed to the
GOOGLE.
And YEAH there's another option, which is to NOT publish our stuff to
the internet. That's what the fucking WIKI is for. Email by definition
is not that.
It was never disclosed to me, and I never gave consent, to EMAIL being
published to GOOGLE. Email is not a blog, a wiki, or a website, any
more than a conference call is a radio broadcast. How would you like it
if you discovered that your telephone calls were being broadcast on the
radio, eh?
So let's be really clear about this: I feel VIOLATED by this in a most
intimate and personal way. I was deceived by a failure to disclose a
material fact. Had I been informed that this stuff was going to be
published to the internet and made searchable by email address, I would
have created a compartmentalized address specifically for this purpose,
and used that address, not a personal address that I use for other
purposes. I routinely compartmentalize things for security purposes, it
takes only minor effort to do.
INFORMED CONSENT IS A RIGHT, NOT A PRIVILEGE, and there is no getting
out of it by way of fine print or any other such garbage.
And being violated is not a joke. Ha ha ha, someone put LSD (or Roofies
for that matter) in your soda, ha ha ha, the guy you slept with last
night had every disease in the book but he didn't tell you, ha ha
fucking ha, if you don't like salmonella don't eat the chicken at the
barbeque, we all like salmonella what's wrong with you if you don't? Oh
look, there's a VEGAN, let's slip him some LARD in his beans, ha ha ha.
Sorry y'all, that's not funny, it doesn't wash, it doesn't rinse, and
I'm fucking sick of spin.
Holy fucking shit, I just pulled an allnighter for work, I'm about to
try to get four hours' sleep and then go into San Francisco and move
EFF's telephone service and about 50 phones, and THIS comes up.
Believe me when I say this is way past my limit, and I am so fucking mad
right now that you don't even want to hear the first three metaphors for
it that come to mind.
So do whatever it takes to disconnect this mailing list from Google,
NOW, and put this on the meeting agenda for next Wednesday, and you'd
better believe I'm going to raise a fucking stink that's going to make a
den of skunks look like a bouquet of roses if this doesn't get done.
This shit totally puts the lie to every ounce of anarchist rhetoric I've
ever heard around here.
-G.
=====
On 13-04-11-Thu 9:42 AM, Romy Ilano wrote:
--
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Liz Henry
lhenry(a)mozilla.com
lizhenry(a)gmail.com
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss In this case what are the practical solutions for
your / non privacy?
I'm curious. There is a lot of character assassination going on between companies
where people hire trolls to harass victims and leave a trail of bad results in google
searches
I wouldn't say it happened to me but maybe!
---
Romy Ilano
Founder of Snowyla
http://www.snowyla.com
romy(a)snowyla.com
On Apr 11, 2013, at 9:24, Anon195714 <anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Oh Fuck.
>
> Fucking fuckity fuck.
>
> Fucking surveillance monster on the rampage.
>
> OK, time for me to change my fucking email address on the server, and
> say Fuck a few more times just to get it out of my system.
>
> Thanks for the heads' up.
>
> Anyone here who believes in a deity is welcome to join me in praying for
> Google's servers to melt into little puddles of colorful metallic
> swirls, seething & bubbling on their server room floor.
>
> One more thing: Putting this list on the fucking Google was NON
> CONSENSUAL and YES I am going to bring it up at a meeting, and if
> there's any way to scrub my stuff off there, it's going to get done.
>
> -G.
>
>
> =====
>
>
> On 13-04-11-Thu 9:18 AM, Hol Gaskill wrote:
>> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=anon195714
>>
>>
>> Apr 11, 2013 07:57:08 AM, lizhenry(a)gmail.com wrote:
>> Sorry Romy that I sounded harsh and unclear. I'd be happy to talk any time.
>> Anon195714, it is a public mailing list and its archives are public.
>>> See http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss and click on the link for
Archives.
>>>
>>> - liz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:08 AM, Anon195714 anon195714(a)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> How is it that this EMAIL list is "Googleable"?
>>
>> Is this being posted to a website or something else that has a URL
>> on it?
>>
>> Or has Google figured out a way to spy on email beyond what it
>> already does with gmail?
>>
>> Sheesh.
>>
>> -G.
>> "Consume! Obey!"
>> "Big Data is Watching You."
>>
>>
>> =====
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13-04-10-Wed 12:51 PM, Liz Henry
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> What are you
>> talking about? This sounds completely, completely bizarre to
>> me.
>>
>> I can't remember if you and I have met, but I hope that if we
>> do meet, you won't approach me as a family member. Why are you
>> quasi-introducing this person to an entire public mailing
>> list? With these caveats? It seems not only weird, but
>> outright rude, both to Orange and to the sudo community.
>>
>> Also, are you aware this is a public mailing list, perfectly
>> visible and googleable?
>>
>>
>> Really....
>> whoever you are you just showed your ass.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Romy
>> Ilano romy(a)snowyla.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hey here is one of the film events that
>> Michael Orange from top 10 social is presenting.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
https://www.facebook.com/events/563556023675662/?notif_t=plan_user_invited
>>
>>
>> Michael's also working with the Oakland Library as
>> well,so I'll mention the history wki people from
>> sudoroom are there!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> this probably isn't necessary for anyone here...
>> but in case one or two people gets the temptation:
>>
>>
>> -- Michael Orange is an all around good guy--please
>> treat him well, minimize over the top business plans,
>> "industry type behavior", and approach him as you
>> would a family member. If we talk to him the wrong way
>> it will be a smear on my reputation and his opinion
>> matters a lot to me. =D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>> Liz Henry
>>
>> lhenry(a)mozilla.com
>> lizhenry(a)gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>> Liz Henry
>>> lhenry(a)mozilla.com
>> lizhenry(a)gmail.com
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
4068
days inactive
4070
days old
3 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
aestetix -
Eddan Katz -
Romy Ilano -
Sonja Trauss