25 Nov
2013
25 Nov
'13
9:06 p.m.
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
25 Nov
25 Nov
9:39 p.m.
wow this looks like a phenomenal space! thank you all for checking it out.
any sense as to whether this is an urgent situation (seems like it may not
be since the space has been vacant for a while?)?
- marina
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another
space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
10:39 p.m.
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Marina Kukso <marina.kukso(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
wow this looks like a phenomenal space! thank you all
for checking it out.
any sense as to whether this is an urgent situation (seems like it may not
be since the space has been vacant for a while?)?
There were ~15 other people there to look at it, maybe 5-7 other groups?
Several of them seemed like they were more curious than actively looking
for something to move into soon. On top of that, there are two floors
available and we probably can't take more than one full floor even if we
get 1-2 other groups to join in. It sounded like the only people who'd been
seriously interested so far were Counter Culture Labs.
- marina
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another
space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
10:03 p.m.
Um, not that I wouldn't support a space here, but your impression that it seems/feels
safe there is wrong. That is exactly where my kid was thrown to the ground in the middle
of the street by three teenagers, with a gun held to her stomach, and robbed. I won't
even use that Bart station anymore.
Tracy
On Nov 25, 2013, at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another
space that could potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of the major
concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a neighborhood that
seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART, and in being located in a less
gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in comparing it to the current space and The
Omni is the lack of a big separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to
Noisebridge in almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
10:15 p.m.
Nice space and big kudos for the exploration expedition... but I see a lot of fireworks,
loitering, secret handshakes, and late-night gatherings of all sorts at the two parks and
Bart station right nearby and especially outside ChaTime, my sometimes favorite downtown
snack spot. Tracy's experience is worth noting for sure.
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Tracy Jacobs <kinetical(a)comcast.net>
wrote:
Um, not that I wouldn't support a space here, but
your impression that it seems/feels safe there is wrong. That is exactly where my kid was
thrown to the ground in the middle of the street by three teenagers, with a gun held to
her stomach, and robbed. I won't even use that Bart station anymore.
Tracy
On Nov 25, 2013, at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
> Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could potentially be a
new sudo space.
>
> We've started gathering information about it here:
>
> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
>
> My personal feeling about the space is:
>
> This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of the major
concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a neighborhood that
seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART, and in being located in a less
gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in comparing it to the current space and The
Omni is the lack of a big separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to
Noisebridge in almost every way.
>
> --
> marc/juul
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
10:35 p.m.
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Tracy Jacobs <kinetical(a)comcast.net>wrote;wrote:
Um, not that I wouldn't support a space here, but your impression that it
seems/feels safe there is wrong. That is exactly where my kid was thrown
to the ground in the middle of the street by three teenagers, with a gun
held to her stomach, and robbed. I won't even use that Bart station
anymore.
That's horrible.
I've compiled some basic stats about this new area vs. our existing
location. Not that these stats are necessarily a good estimate of safety,
but it's the best I could do with the data from oakland.crimespotting.org.
Reported crimes between January 1st 2013 and when they stopped reporting 64
days ago within a two-block radius of the path between this new potential
location and the BART stop.
Theft: 5
Simple Assault: 4
Aggravated Assault: 2
Vehicle theft: 1
Robbery: 1
Burglary: 1
Vandalism: 1
Narcotics: 0
The same, but for the path between sudo room's current location and the
19th st BART stop:
Theft: 6
Simple Assault: 12
Aggravated Assault: 0
Vehicle theft : 2
Robbery: 3
Burglary: 2
Vandalism: 1
Narcotics: 1
I make no guarantees as to the accuracy of this data.
Tracy
On Nov 25, 2013, at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul
<juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
10:56 p.m.
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 10:35 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Tracy Jacobs
<kinetical(a)comcast.net>wrote;wrote:
and here's one for The Omni to MacArthur two block radius (a bigger area
since it's a longer walk):
Theft: 6
Simple Assault: 9
Aggravated Assault: 1
Vehicle theft: 0
Robbery: 10
Burglary: 2
Vandalism: 2
Narcotics: 0
Seems the area may be more robbery-prone, or maybe it's just more "people
who have insurance and need a police report to file a claim"-prone. I'm not
sure how to get actual useful safety date.
Um, not that I wouldn't support a space here, but your impression that it
seems/feels safe there is wrong. That is exactly where my kid was thrown
to the ground in the middle of the street by three teenagers, with a gun
held to her stomach, and robbed. I won't even use that Bart station
anymore.
That's horrible.
I've compiled some basic stats about this new area vs. our existing
location. Not that these stats are necessarily a good estimate of safety,
but it's the best I could do with the data from oakland.crimespotting.org.
Reported crimes between January 1st 2013 and when they stopped reporting
64 days ago within a two-block radius of the path between this new
potential location and the BART stop.
Theft: 5
Simple Assault: 4
Aggravated Assault: 2
Vehicle theft: 1
Robbery: 1
Burglary: 1
Vandalism: 1
Narcotics: 0
The same, but for the path between sudo room's current location and the
19th st BART stop:
Theft: 6
Simple Assault: 12
Aggravated Assault: 0
Vehicle theft : 2
Robbery: 3
Burglary: 2
Vandalism: 1
Narcotics: 1
I make no guarantees as to the accuracy of this data.
Tracy
On Nov 25, 2013, at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul
<juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
26 Nov
26 Nov
8:45 a.m.
It should be noted that aiming for a space in a "less-gentrified"
neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another
space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
--
* Animator Mama You-Tube Channel
<http://www.youtube.com/user/videocabulary/videos?view=0> *
* Animator Mama on Tumblr <http://animatormama.tumblr.com/> *
* animatormama.com <http://animatormama.com/> *
9:59 a.m.
Jesus you guys what you just said is "maybe we shouldn't move into a black
neighborhood."
Yeah you should maintain neighborhood segregation. God forbid blacks and
whites mix.
God forbid black homeowners see the value of their homes increase.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, AnimationAmber . wrote:
It should be noted that aiming for a space in a
"less-gentrified"
neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul@labitat.dk<javascript:_e({},
'cvml', 'juul(a)labitat.dk');>
wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another
space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org');>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
--
* Animator Mama You-Tube Channel
<http://www.youtube.com/user/videocabulary/videos?view=0> *
* Animator Mama on Tumblr <http://animatormama.tumblr.com/> *
* animatormama.com <http://animatormama.com/> *
10 a.m.
Everybody has different views on gentrification. But speaking for myself,
the kind that bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site parking
where rich people get cheap real estate and then have zero incentive or
inclination to engage with their neighbors. They drive to work, drive to
Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their balconies while their
neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike front doors to the
recycling center.
Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build the kind of
community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to
imagine Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
unexpected happened, I think its community would act quickly to correct the
problem.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . <
amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It should be noted that aiming for a space in a
"less-gentrified"
neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another
space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
--
* Animator Mama You-Tube Channel
<http://www.youtube.com/user/videocabulary/videos?view=0> *
* Animator Mama on Tumblr <http://animatormama.tumblr.com/> *
* animatormama.com <http://animatormama.com/> *
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10:13 a.m.
Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of them
like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have computers?
Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty similar to
white people and like lots of the same things!!! Wow.
In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots burners and anarchists
there that would like sudo room too. My roommate Randall will be there
every day if you move to 8th and Alice.
Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried about the harmful effects
of gentrification, I'm happy to brainstorm how to accomplish these
two specific goals:
Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing projects move or be
converted. (This will not be a real concern for 25 years, but still)
Make new building in w o very very easy. The main attractive feature of w O
is cheapness of rent. We still have plenty of empty space. There is no
reason that supply tightness should cause rents to rise for 50 more years
SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Everybody has different views on gentrification. But
speaking for myself,
the kind that bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site parking
where rich people get cheap real estate and then have zero incentive or
inclination to engage with their neighbors. They drive to work, drive to
Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their balconies while their
neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike front doors to the
recycling center.
Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build the kind of
community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to
imagine Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
unexpected happened, I think its community would act quickly to correct the
problem.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . <
amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com');>> wrote:
It should be noted that aiming for a space in a
"less-gentrified"
neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul@labitat.dk<javascript:_e({},
'cvml', 'juul(a)labitat.dk');>
wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another
space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org');>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
--
* Animator Mama You-Tube Channel
<http://www.youtube.com/user/videocabulary/videos?view=0> *
* Animator Mama on Tumblr <http://animatormama.tumblr.com/> *
* animatormama.com <http://animatormama.com/> *
_______________________________________________
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'sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org');>
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10:50 a.m.
Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is "pretty mixed" racially
and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber was
talking about black people, and commenting on race?
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did
you know, some of them
like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have computers?
Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty similar to
white people and like lots of the same things!!! Wow.
In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots burners and anarchists
there that would like sudo room too. My roommate Randall will be there
every day if you move to 8th and Alice.
Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried about the harmful
effects of gentrification, I'm happy to brainstorm how to accomplish these
two specific goals:
Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing projects move or be
converted. (This will not be a real concern for 25 years, but still)
Make new building in w o very very easy. The main attractive feature of w
O is cheapness of rent. We still have plenty of empty space. There is no
reason that supply tightness should cause rents to rise for 50 more years
SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
> Everybody has different views on gentrification. But speaking for myself,
> the kind that bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site parking
> where rich people get cheap real estate and then have zero incentive or
> inclination to engage with their neighbors. They drive to work, drive to
> Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their balconies while their
> neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike front doors to the
> recycling center.
>
> Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build the kind of
> community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
> opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to
> imagine Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
> unexpected happened, I think its community would act quickly to correct the
> problem.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . <
> amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It should be noted that aiming for a space in a "less-gentrified"
>> neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
>> a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
>>
>> -amber
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
>>> potentially be a new sudo space.
>>>
>>> We've started gathering information about it here:
>>>
>>> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
>>>
>>> My personal feeling about the space is:
>>>
>>> This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two
>>> of the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART
>>> in a neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur
>>> BART, and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one
>>> drawback in comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a
>>> big separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
>>> almost every way.
>>>
>>> --
>>> marc/juul
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> * Animator Mama You-Tube Channel
>> <http://www.youtube.com/user/videocabulary/videos?view=0> *
>> * Animator Mama on Tumblr <http://animatormama.tumblr.com/> *
>>
>> * animatormama.com <http://animatormama.com/> *
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
>
10:58 a.m.
Just because that's the usual context for gentrification. "pretty mixed" in
that context meant in the interests and jobs of the residents. I meant w o
is already home to many anarchists/ makers/ artists. Not clear though,
fair.
I should look up the race breakdown though. It's 65% black I think and the
rest Asian Latino and white. Not in that order, I don't remember the order.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is
"pretty mixed" racially
and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber was
talking about black people, and commenting on race?
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of them
like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have computers?
Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty similar to
white people and like lots of the same things!!! Wow.
In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots burners and anarchists
there that would like sudo room too. My roommate Randall will be there
every day if you move to 8th and Alice.
Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried about the harmful
effects of gentrification, I'm happy to brainstorm how to accomplish these
two specific goals:
Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing projects move or be
converted. (This will not be a real concern for 25 years, but still)
Make new building in w o very very easy. The main attractive feature of w
O is cheapness of rent. We still have plenty of empty space. There is no
reason that supply tightness should cause rents to rise for 50 more years
SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Everybody has different views on gentrification. But speaking for myself,
the kind that bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site parking
where rich people get cheap real estate and then have zero incentive or
inclination to engage with their neighbors. They drive to work, drive to
Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their balconies while their
neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike front doors to the
recycling center.
Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build the kind of
community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to
imagine Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
unexpected happened, I think its community would act quickly to correct the
problem.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . <
amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It should be noted that aiming for a space in a "less-gentrified"
neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
--
11:20 a.m.
Cool. I think your points are fair, I just bristled at the public
accusation that a list member was being racially insensitive, on minimal
evidence.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Just because that's the usual context for
gentrification. "pretty mixed"
in that context meant in the interests and jobs of the residents. I meant w
o is already home to many anarchists/ makers/ artists. Not clear though,
fair.
I should look up the race breakdown though. It's 65% black I think and the
rest Asian Latino and white. Not in that order, I don't remember the order.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
> Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is "pretty mixed"
> racially and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber
> was talking about black people, and commenting on race?
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
>
> Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of
> them like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have
> computers? Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty
> similar to white people and like lots of the same things!!! Wow.
>
> In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots burners and anarchists
> there that would like sudo room too. My roommate Randall will be there
> every day if you move to 8th and Alice.
>
> Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried about the harmful
> effects of gentrification, I'm happy to brainstorm how to accomplish these
> two specific goals:
> Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing projects move or
> be converted. (This will not be a real concern for 25 years, but still)
> Make new building in w o very very easy. The main attractive feature of w
> O is cheapness of rent. We still have plenty of empty space. There is no
> reason that supply tightness should cause rents to rise for 50 more years
> SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>
> Everybody has different views on gentrification. But speaking for myself,
> the kind that bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site parking
> where rich people get cheap real estate and then have zero incentive or
> inclination to engage with their neighbors. They drive to work, drive to
> Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their balconies while their
> neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike front doors to the
> recycling center.
>
> Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build the kind of
> community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
> opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to
> imagine Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
> unexpected happened, I think its community would act quickly to correct the
> problem.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . <
> amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It should be noted that aiming for a space in a "less-gentrified"
> neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
> a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
>
> -amber
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
>
> Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
> potentially be a new sudo space.
>
> We've started gathering information about it here:
>
> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
>
> My personal feeling about the space is:
>
> This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
> the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
> neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
> and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
> comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
> separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
> almost every way.
>
> --
> marc/juul
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
11:22 a.m.
Actually, forget the "minimal evidence" part. I'm not sure that kind of
accusation *ever* has a place on a public mailing list.
Your analysis certainly does, though.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Pete Forsyth <peteforsyth(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Cool. I think your points are fair, I just bristled at
the public
accusation that a list member was being racially insensitive, on minimal
evidence.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Just because that's the usual context for
gentrification. "pretty mixed"
in that context meant in the interests and jobs of the residents. I meant w
o is already home to many anarchists/ makers/ artists. Not clear though,
fair.
I should look up the race breakdown though. It's 65% black I think and
the rest Asian Latino and white. Not in that order, I don't remember the
order.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
> Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is "pretty mixed"
> racially and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber
> was talking about black people, and commenting on race?
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
>
> Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of
> them like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have
> computers? Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty
> similar to white people and like lots of the same things!!! Wow.
>
> In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots burners and anarchists
> there that would like sudo room too. My roommate Randall will be there
> every day if you move to 8th and Alice.
>
> Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried about the harmful
> effects of gentrification, I'm happy to brainstorm how to accomplish these
> two specific goals:
> Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing projects move or
> be converted. (This will not be a real concern for 25 years, but still)
> Make new building in w o very very easy. The main attractive feature of
> w O is cheapness of rent. We still have plenty of empty space. There is no
> reason that supply tightness should cause rents to rise for 50 more years
> SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>
> Everybody has different views on gentrification. But speaking for
> myself, the kind that bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site
> parking where rich people get cheap real estate and then have zero
> incentive or inclination to engage with their neighbors. They drive to
> work, drive to Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their
> balconies while their neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike
> front doors to the recycling center.
>
> Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build the kind of
> community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
> opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to
> imagine Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
> unexpected happened, I think its community would act quickly to correct the
> problem.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . <
> amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It should be noted that aiming for a space in a "less-gentrified"
> neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
> a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
>
> -amber
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
>
> Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
> potentially be a new sudo space.
>
> We've started gathering information about it here:
>
> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
>
> My personal feeling about the space is:
>
> This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
> the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
> neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
> and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
> comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
> separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
> almost every way.
>
> --
> marc/juul
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
7:51 p.m.
Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized where 8th and Alice is - I saw
"8th st" and "near BART" and thought you were talking about w Oakland
BART.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is
"pretty mixed" racially
and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber was
talking about black people, and commenting on race?
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of them
like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have computers?
Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty similar to
white people and like lots of the same things!!! Wow.
In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots burners and anarchists
there that would like sudo room too. My roommate Randall will be there
every day if you move to 8th and Alice.
Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried about the harmful
effects of gentrification, I'm happy to brainstorm how to accomplish these
two specific goals:
Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing projects move or be
converted. (This will not be a real concern for 25 years, but still)
Make new building in w o very very easy. The main attractive feature of w
O is cheapness of rent. We still have plenty of empty space. There is no
reason that supply tightness should cause rents to rise for 50 more years
SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Everybody has different views on gentrification. But speaking for myself,
the kind that bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site parking
where rich people get cheap real estate and then have zero incentive or
inclination to engage with their neighbors. They drive to work, drive to
Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their balconies while their
neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike front doors to the
recycling center.
Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build the kind of
community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to
imagine Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
unexpected happened, I think its community would act quickly to correct the
problem.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . <
amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It should be noted that aiming for a space in a "less-gentrified"
neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
--
2 Dec
2 Dec
4:32 p.m.
(shakes head, sighs)
I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases, putting the onus
of personal safety on a neighborhood is totally missing the point that YOU
ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, full stop. Saying that you are
(relatively) more or less safe depending on where you are is...is...well,
it's wrong thinking on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.
Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions about this
based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to such-and-such area" I think
"Wow, if that isn't privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know
what is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying. I like and
respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm pointing this out. I don't
want anyone to be lulled into a false sense of security/anxiety by thinking
that just because you're in one area bad shit is less prone to happen to
you, or vice versa. It's on all of us to be aware of what's going on around
us and to be prepared to deal with whatever situations may come our way,
alone or otherwise. Good Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops are...well,
the odds of them being there when you "need" them (I personally don't) are
next to nil, and they only seem to make things complicated after the fact.
What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space that meets the
needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many important
discussions get derailed like this, and right now I think this is pretty
high on our list of immediate concerns.
And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue I'm all
ears/eyes.
Respectfully,
-chrisbee
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized where
8th and Alice is - I saw
"8th st" and "near BART" and thought you were talking about w Oakland
BART.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland
is "pretty mixed"
racially and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber
was talking about black people, and commenting on race?
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of
them like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have
computers? Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty
similar to white people and like lots of the same things!!! Wow.
In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots burners and anarchists
there that would like sudo room too. My roommate Randall will be there
every day if you move to 8th and Alice.
Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried about the harmful
effects of gentrification, I'm happy to brainstorm how to accomplish these
two specific goals:
Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing projects move or
be converted. (This will not be a real concern for 25 years, but still)
Make new building in w o very very easy. The main attractive feature of w
O is cheapness of rent. We still have plenty of empty space. There is no
reason that supply tightness should cause rents to rise for 50 more years
SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Everybody has different views on gentrification. But speaking for myself,
the kind that bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site parking
where rich people get cheap real estate and then have zero incentive or
inclination to engage with their neighbors. They drive to work, drive to
Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their balconies while their
neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike front doors to the
recycling center.
Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build the kind of
community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to
imagine Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
unexpected happened, I think its community would act quickly to correct the
problem.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . <
amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It should be noted that aiming for a space in a "less-gentrified"
neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
--
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
6:02 p.m.
Yeah but what if taking responsibility for your safety means not going
where you've been robbed before?
On Monday, December 2, 2013, Chris Bee wrote:
(shakes head, sighs)
I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases, putting the
onus of personal safety on a neighborhood is totally missing the point that
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, full stop. Saying that you are
(relatively) more or less safe depending on where you are is...is...well,
it's wrong thinking on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.
Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions about this
based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to such-and-such area" I think
"Wow, if that isn't privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know
what is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying. I like and
respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm pointing this out. I don't
want anyone to be lulled into a false sense of security/anxiety by thinking
that just because you're in one area bad shit is less prone to happen to
you, or vice versa. It's on all of us to be aware of what's going on around
us and to be prepared to deal with whatever situations may come our way,
alone or otherwise. Good Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops are...well,
the odds of them being there when you "need" them (I personally don't) are
next to nil, and they only seem to make things complicated after the fact.
What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space that meets
the needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many important
discussions get derailed like this, and right now I think this is pretty
high on our list of immediate concerns.
And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue I'm all
ears/eyes.
Respectfully,
-chrisbee
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized where 8th and Alice is - I saw
"8th st" and "near BART" and thought you were talking about w Oakland
BART.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is "pretty mixed" racially
and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber was
talking about black people, and commenting on race?
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of them
like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have computers?
Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty similar to
white people and like lots of the same things!!! Wow.
In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots burners and anarchists
there that would like sudo room too. My roommate Randall will be there
every day if you move to 8th and Alice.
Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried about the harmful
effects of gentrification, I'm happy to brainstorm how to accomplish these
two specific goals:
Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing projects move or be
converted. (This will not be a real concern for 25 years, but still)
Make new building in w o very very easy. The main attractive feature of w
O is cheapness of rent. We still have plenty of empty space. There is no
reason that supply tightness should cause rents to rise for 50 more years
SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Everybody has different views on gentrification. But speaking for myself,
the kind that bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site parking
where rich people get cheap real estate and then have zero incentive or
inclination to engage with their neighbors. They drive to work, drive to
Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their balconies while their
neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike front doors to the
recycling center.
Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build the kind of
community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to
imagine Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
unexpected happened, I think its community would act quickly to correct the
problem.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . <
amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It should be noted that aiming for a space in a "less-gentrified"
neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
6:54 p.m.
Re. Sonja:
Exactly what I've done: not gone back to SudoRoom after having had a gun
pointed at my guts right in the doorway. Chances are at least one
person reading this is pleased with that outcome, but at least four I
know aren't.
Re. ChrisBee:
Right, blame the fucking victims, three or four of us that I know of
who've been robbed, assaulted, or had car windows smashed and stuff
stolen coming & going from SR or parked nearby, and possibly one or two
I missed.
Let's see, where have we heard your line of bullshit before?... she
shouldn't have been wearing those clothes either...? I take it you
agree with that too.
I'll quote you directly for what comes next, just so the context of my
reply is clear:
"Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions about
this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to such-and-such area"
I think "Wow, if that isn't privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I
don't know what is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just
saying."
So it's "privilege/entitlement/self-absorption" to value being in a safe
location where you're less likely to be subjected to violence on the
street? I'm going to say something to you that I haven't said to anyone
in a damn long time: Go fuck yourself.
-G.
=====
On 13-12-02-Mon 6:02 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:
Yeah but what if taking responsibility for your safety
means not going
where you've been robbed before?
On Monday, December 2, 2013, Chris Bee wrote:
(shakes head, sighs)
I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases, putting
the onus of personal safety on a neighborhood is totally missing
the point that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, full stop.
Saying that you are (relatively) more or less safe depending on
where you are is...is...well, it's wrong thinking on so many
levels that I don't even know where to begin.
Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions
about this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to
such-and-such area" I think "Wow, if that isn't
privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know what is."
Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying. I like and
respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm pointing this out.
I don't want anyone to be lulled into a false sense of
security/anxiety by thinking that just because you're in one area
bad shit is less prone to happen to you, or vice versa. It's on
all of us to be aware of what's going on around us and to be
prepared to deal with whatever situations may come our way, alone
or otherwise. Good Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops
are...well, the odds of them being there when you "need" them (I
personally don't) are next to nil, and they only seem to make
things complicated after the fact.
What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space that
meets the needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many
important discussions get derailed like this, and right now I
think this is pretty high on our list of immediate concerns.
And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue I'm
all ears/eyes.
Respectfully,
-chrisbee
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss
<sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized where 8th and Alice
is - I saw "8th st" and "near BART" and thought you were
talking about w Oakland BART.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is "pretty
mixed" racially and culturally, what is it that leads you
to conclude that Amber was talking about black people, and
commenting on race?
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss
<sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did
you know, some of them like coffee shops also? some of
them can read? Some of them have computers? Some of
them might become sudo members? Black people are
pretty similar to white people and like lots of the
same things!!! Wow.
In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots
burners and anarchists there that would like sudo room
too. My roommate Randall will be there every day if
you move to 8th and Alice.
Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried
about the harmful effects of gentrification, I'm happy
to brainstorm how to accomplish these two specific goals:
Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing
projects move or be converted. (This will not be a
real concern for 25 years, but still)
Make new building in w o very very easy. The main
attractive feature of w O is cheapness of rent. We
still have plenty of empty space. There is no reason
that supply tightness should cause rents to rise for
50 more years SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION
concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Everybody has different views on gentrification.
But speaking for myself, the kind that bothers me
is the high-security condos with on-site parking
where rich people get cheap real estate and then
have zero incentive or inclination to engage with
their neighbors. They drive to work, drive to
Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on
their balconies while their neighbors push
shopping carts by their fortresslike front doors
to the recycling center.
Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not
build the kind of community that everybody wants
to participate in, but it does offer
opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker
space. It's hard for me to imagine Sudo Room doing
damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
unexpected happened, I think its community would
act quickly to correct the problem.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber .
<amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It should be noted that aiming for a space in
a "less-gentrified" neighborhood does overlook
the possibility that Sudo's presence would
have a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul
<juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at
another space that could potentially be a
new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about
it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of
natural light. It addresses two of the
major concerns raised about The Omni in
being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than
the area around MacArthur BART, and in
being located in a less gentrified
neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The
Omni is the lack of a big separate common
area for events. It is _very_ similar to
Noisebridge in almost every way.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
7:22 p.m.
Whoa! I don't think Chris is saying 'Blame the victim' at all. We've
probably all been in dicey situations and been threatened at the very
least, emotions run high on this issue but I'd urge you not to channel your
anger around that on Chris. To my mind, he's just saying we all have to be
aware of our surroundings and safety no matter where we are, which makes
sense. Not that its the victim's fault. As Bruce Schneier has outlined,
there are tradeoffs between freedom and safety that we navigate every day -
sometimes we suffer because of it, and that fucking sucks, but does that
mean we all should move to the suburbs? I've been robbed in my own home,
which feels a damn sight safer than walking down Broadway, and I think that
was Chris's point. Please don't accuse him of siding with muggers or some
such sentiment. No one's going there -
Love,
David
On Monday, December 2, 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
Re. Sonja:
Exactly what I've done: not gone back to SudoRoom after having had a gun
pointed at my guts right in the doorway. Chances are at least one person
reading this is pleased with that outcome, but at least four I know aren't.
Re. ChrisBee:
Right, blame the fucking victims, three or four of us that I know of
who've been robbed, assaulted, or had car windows smashed and stuff stolen
coming & going from SR or parked nearby, and possibly one or two I missed.
Let's see, where have we heard your line of bullshit before?... she
shouldn't have been wearing those clothes either...? I take it you agree
with that too.
I'll quote you directly for what comes next, just so the context of my
reply is clear:
"Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions about
this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to such-and-such area" I
think "Wow, if that isn't privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I
don't know what is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just
saying."
So it's "privilege/entitlement/self-absorption" to value being in a safe
location where you're less likely to be subjected to violence on the
street? I'm going to say something to you that I haven't said to anyone in
a damn long time: Go fuck yourself.
-G.
=====
On 13-12-02-Mon 6:02 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:
Yeah but what if taking responsibility for your safety means not going
where you've been robbed before?
On Monday, December 2, 2013, Chris Bee wrote:
(shakes head, sighs)
I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases, putting the
onus of personal safety on a neighborhood is totally missing the point that
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, full stop. Saying that you are
(relatively) more or less safe depending on where you are is...is...well,
it's wrong thinking on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.
Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions about
this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to such-and-such area" I
think "Wow, if that isn't privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I
don't know what is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying. I
like and respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm pointing this out.
I don't want anyone to be lulled into a false sense of security/anxiety by
thinking that just because you're in one area bad shit is less prone to
happen to you, or vice versa. It's on all of us to be aware of what's going
on around us and to be prepared to deal with whatever situations may come
our way, alone or otherwise. Good Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops
are...well, the odds of them being there when you "need" them (I personally
don't) are next to nil, and they only seem to make things complicated after
the fact.
What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space that meets
the needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many important
discussions get derailed like this, and right now I think this is pretty
high on our list of immediate concerns.
And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue I'm all
ears/eyes.
Respectfully,
-chrisbee
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized where 8th and Alice is - I saw
"8th st" and "near BART" and thought you were talking about w
Oakland
BART.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is "pretty mixed" racially
and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber was
talking about black people, and commenting on race?
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of them
like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have computers?
Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty similar to
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing listsudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:_e({},
'cvml',
'sudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.org');>http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
7:53 p.m.
Chris maybe wasn't trying to say 'blame the victim,' but that is definitely
what he wound up saying.
On Monday, December 2, 2013, David Keenan wrote:
Whoa! I don't think Chris is saying 'Blame the
victim' at all. We've
probably all been in dicey situations and been threatened at the very
least, emotions run high on this issue but I'd urge you not to channel your
anger around that on Chris. To my mind, he's just saying we all have to be
aware of our surroundings and safety no matter where we are, which makes
sense. Not that its the victim's fault. As Bruce Schneier has outlined,
there are tradeoffs between freedom and safety that we navigate every day -
sometimes we suffer because of it, and that fucking sucks, but does that
mean we all should move to the suburbs? I've been robbed in my own home,
which feels a damn sight safer than walking down Broadway, and I think that
was Chris's point. Please don't accuse him of siding with muggers or some
such sentiment. No one's going there -
Love,
David
On Monday, December 2, 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
>
> Re. Sonja:
>
> Exactly what I've done: not gone back to SudoRoom after having had a gun
> pointed at my guts right in the doorway. Chances are at least one person
> reading this is pleased with that outcome, but at least four I know aren't.
>
> Re. ChrisBee:
>
> Right, blame the fucking victims, three or four of us that I know of
> who've been robbed, assaulted, or had car windows smashed and stuff stolen
> coming & going from SR or parked nearby, and possibly one or two I missed.
>
> Let's see, where have we heard your line of bullshit before?... she
> shouldn't have been wearing those clothes either...? I take it you agree
> with that too.
>
> I'll quote you directly for what comes next, just so the context of my
> reply is clear:
>
> "Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions about
> this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to such-and-such area" I
> think "Wow, if that isn't privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I
> don't know what is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just
saying."
>
> So it's "privilege/entitlement/self-absorption" to value being in a
safe
> location where you're less likely to be subjected to violence on the
> street? I'm going to say something to you that I haven't said to anyone in
> a damn long time: Go fuck yourself.
>
> -G.
>
>
> =====
>
>
> On 13-12-02-Mon 6:02 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:
>
> Yeah but what if taking responsibility for your safety means not going
> where you've been robbed before?
>
> On Monday, December 2, 2013, Chris Bee wrote:
>
> (shakes head, sighs)
>
> I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases, putting the
> onus of personal safety on a neighborhood is totally missing the point that
> YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, full stop. Saying that you are
> (relatively) more or less safe depending on where you are is...is...well,
> it's wrong thinking on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.
>
> Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions about
> this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to such-and-such area" I
> think "Wow, if that isn't privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I
> don't know what is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just
saying. I
> like and respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm pointing this out.
> I don't want anyone to be lulled into a false sense of security/anxiety by
> thinking that just because you're in one area bad shit is less prone to
> happen to you, or vice versa. It's on all of us to be aware of what's going
> on around us and to be prepared to deal with whatever situations may come
> our way, alone or otherwise. Good Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops
> are...well, the odds of them being there when you "need" them (I
personally
> don't) are next to nil, and they only seem to make things complicated after
> the fact.
>
> What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space that meets
> the needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
>
> Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many important
> discussions get derailed like this, and right now I think this is pretty
> high on our list of immediate concerns.
>
> And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue I'm all
> ears/eyes.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> -chrisbee
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
>
> Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized where 8th and Alice is - I saw
> "8th st" and "near BART" and thought you were talking about w
Oakland
> BART.
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>
> Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is "pretty mixed"
> racially and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber
> was talking about black people, and commenting on race?
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
>
> Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of
> them like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have
> computers? Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty
> similar to
>
> <
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing
listsudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.orghttp://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
>
8:22 p.m.
Yeah I think it would be a good idea to check our privilege when
discussing safety on the street. White males have the privilege of
feeling safe in almost every environment. This is a privilege that our
female/queer/trans*/poc in our community may not have. This is not
meant to discredit what anyone had said.
On 12/02/2013 07:53 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:
Chris maybe wasn't trying to say 'blame the
victim,' but that is definitely
what he wound up saying.
On Monday, December 2, 2013, David Keenan wrote:
Whoa! I don't think Chris is saying
'Blame the victim' at all. We've
probably all been in dicey situations and been threatened at the very
least, emotions run high on this issue but I'd urge you not to channel your
anger around that on Chris. To my mind, he's just saying we all have to be
aware of our surroundings and safety no matter where we are, which makes
sense. Not that its the victim's fault. As Bruce Schneier has outlined,
there are tradeoffs between freedom and safety that we navigate every day -
sometimes we suffer because of it, and that fucking sucks, but does that
mean we all should move to the suburbs? I've been robbed in my own home,
which feels a damn sight safer than walking down Broadway, and I think that
was Chris's point. Please don't accuse him of siding with muggers or some
such sentiment. No one's going there -
Love,
David
On Monday, December 2, 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
> Re. Sonja:
>
> Exactly what I've done: not gone back to SudoRoom after having had a gun
> pointed at my guts right in the doorway. Chances are at least one person
> reading this is pleased with that outcome, but at least four I know aren't.
>
> Re. ChrisBee:
>
> Right, blame the fucking victims, three or four of us that I know of
> who've been robbed, assaulted, or had car windows smashed and stuff stolen
> coming & going from SR or parked nearby, and possibly one or two I missed.
>
> Let's see, where have we heard your line of bullshit before?... she
> shouldn't have been wearing those clothes either...? I take it you agree
> with that too.
>
> I'll quote you directly for what comes next, just so the context of my
> reply is clear:
>
> "Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions about
> this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to such-and-such area" I
> think "Wow, if that isn't privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I
> don't know what is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just
saying."
>
> So it's "privilege/entitlement/self-absorption" to value being in a
safe
> location where you're less likely to be subjected to violence on the
> street? I'm going to say something to you that I haven't said to anyone in
> a damn long time: Go fuck yourself.
>
> -G.
>
>
> =====
>
>
> On 13-12-02-Mon 6:02 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:
>
> Yeah but what if taking responsibility for your safety means not going
> where you've been robbed before?
>
> On Monday, December 2, 2013, Chris Bee wrote:
>
> (shakes head, sighs)
>
> I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases, putting the
> onus of personal safety on a neighborhood is totally missing the point that
> YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, full stop. Saying that you are
> (relatively) more or less safe depending on where you are is...is...well,
> it's wrong thinking on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.
>
> Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions about
> this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to such-and-such area" I
> think "Wow, if that isn't privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I
> don't know what is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just
saying. I
> like and respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm pointing this out.
> I don't want anyone to be lulled into a false sense of security/anxiety by
> thinking that just because you're in one area bad shit is less prone to
> happen to you, or vice versa. It's on all of us to be aware of what's going
> on around us and to be prepared to deal with whatever situations may come
> our way, alone or otherwise. Good Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops
> are...well, the odds of them being there when you "need" them (I
personally
> don't) are next to nil, and they only seem to make things complicated after
> the fact.
>
> What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space that meets
> the needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
>
> Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many important
> discussions get derailed like this, and right now I think this is pretty
> high on our list of immediate concerns.
>
> And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue I'm all
> ears/eyes.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> -chrisbee
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
>
> Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized where 8th and Alice is - I saw
> "8th st" and "near BART" and thought you were talking about w
Oakland
> BART.
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>
> Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is "pretty mixed"
> racially and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber
> was talking about black people, and commenting on race?
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
>
> Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of
> them like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have
> computers? Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty
> similar to
>
> <
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing
listsudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.orghttp://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
8:54 p.m.
David:
I'm not telepathic enough to know what he MEANT, but what he SAID was
off-the-scale obnoxious and offensive.
YEAH, we all have to be aware of our surroundings, and blah blah blah.
Guess what? It doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Look at the
crime maps of Oakland. The whole fucking downtown is a fucking war
zone, up and down Broadway, at all times including in broad daylight.
Meanwhile SudoList lurches between the looney left and the looney right:
"fuck the police" one week, and "you're on your own, bub" the next
week,
while the door keypad is a broken mess and you could bleed to death on
the street trying to get into the building. That plus lax password
policy, which Max is thankfully trying to change, before "be aware of
your surroundings" also ends up meaning "because they might get inside."
And since they DID get inside your HOME, should you have carried a
pistol in your home as well?
How'bout hire a professional security contractor to install a reliable
door entry system? Or are we also supposed to pretend we know how to
perform open-heart surgery, after all, it begins with the word "open" as
in "free beer," so why not?
Let's be clear about this: looney left anti-police bravado, and looney
right you're-on-your-own-bub bravado, add up to a hill of horse shit.
If the city is crawling with predators, the problem isn't you or I or
even Chris Ad-Hom Hand Grenade Bee: the problem is the fucking
predators, and the thing to do with them is lock them up where they
can't prey on people who are merely trying to live their lives.
And I am NOT accusing Chris Bee of siding with the muggers. I'm
accusing him of espousing the looney right wing you're-on-your-own
bullshit, wrapped up in looney left language about entitlement.
People damn well ARE entitled to walk down the fucking street without
being in constant fear for their lives.
Enough was enough a few thousand murders, rapes, and robberies ago.
-G.
======
On 13-12-02-Mon 7:22 PM, David Keenan wrote:
Whoa! I don't think Chris is saying 'Blame the
victim' at all. We've
probably all been in dicey situations and been threatened at the very
least, emotions run high on this issue but I'd urge you not to channel
your anger around that on Chris. To my mind, he's just saying we all
have to be aware of our surroundings and safety no matter where we
are, which makes sense. Not that its the victim's fault. As Bruce
Schneier has outlined, there are tradeoffs between freedom and safety
that we navigate every day - sometimes we suffer because of it, and
that fucking sucks, but does that mean we all should move to the
suburbs? I've been robbed in my own home, which feels a damn sight
safer than walking down Broadway, and I think that was Chris's point.
Please don't accuse him of siding with muggers or some such sentiment.
No one's going there -
Love,
David
On Monday, December 2, 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
Re. Sonja:
Exactly what I've done: not gone back to SudoRoom after having had
a gun pointed at my guts right in the doorway. Chances are at
least one person reading this is pleased with that outcome, but at
least four I know aren't.
Re. ChrisBee:
Right, blame the fucking victims, three or four of us that I know
of who've been robbed, assaulted, or had car windows smashed and
stuff stolen coming & going from SR or parked nearby, and possibly
one or two I missed.
Let's see, where have we heard your line of bullshit before?...
she shouldn't have been wearing those clothes either...? I take
it you agree with that too.
I'll quote you directly for what comes next, just so the context
of my reply is clear:
"Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions
about this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to
such-and-such area" I think "Wow, if that isn't
privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know what is."
Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying."
So it's "privilege/entitlement/self-absorption" to value being in
a safe location where you're less likely to be subjected to
violence on the street? I'm going to say something to you that I
haven't said to anyone in a damn long time: Go fuck yourself.
-G.
=====
On 13-12-02-Mon 6:02 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:
Yeah but what if taking responsibility for
your safety means not
going where you've been robbed before?
On Monday, December 2, 2013, Chris Bee wrote:
(shakes head, sighs)
I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases,
putting the onus of personal safety on a neighborhood is
totally missing the point that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR
OWN SAFETY, full stop. Saying that you are (relatively) more
or less safe depending on where you are is...is...well, it's
wrong thinking on so many levels that I don't even know where
to begin.
Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read
discussions about this based around "how safe is so-and-so
compared to such-and-such area" I think "Wow, if that isn't
privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know what
is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying. I
like and respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm
pointing this out. I don't want anyone to be lulled into a
false sense of security/anxiety by thinking that just because
you're in one area bad shit is less prone to happen to you,
or vice versa. It's on all of us to be aware of what's going
on around us and to be prepared to deal with whatever
situations may come our way, alone or otherwise. Good
Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops are...well, the odds of
them being there when you "need" them (I personally don't)
are next to nil, and they only seem to make things
complicated after the fact.
What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space
that meets the needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many
important discussions get derailed like this, and right now I
think this is pretty high on our list of immediate concerns.
And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue
I'm all ears/eyes.
Respectfully,
-chrisbee
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss
<sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized where 8th and
Alice is - I saw "8th st" and "near BART" and thought
you
were talking about w Oakland BART.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is
"pretty mixed" racially and culturally, what is it
that leads you to conclude that Amber was talking
about black people, and commenting on race?
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss
<sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit.
Did you know, some of them like coffee shops
also? some of them can read? Some of them have
computers? Some of them might become sudo
members? Black people are pretty similar to
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org');>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss 
8:58 p.m.
Can we take this off list please? If people would like to discuss this
further I offer my help in arranging a meeting where anyone interested
can do so.
--
-- rhodey ˙ ͜ʟ˙
On 12/02/2013 08:54 PM, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
David:
I'm not telepathic enough to know what he MEANT, but what he SAID was
off-the-scale obnoxious and offensive.
YEAH, we all have to be aware of our surroundings, and blah blah blah.
Guess what? It doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Look at the
crime maps of Oakland. The whole fucking downtown is a fucking war
zone, up and down Broadway, at all times including in broad daylight.
Meanwhile SudoList lurches between the looney left and the looney right:
"fuck the police" one week, and "you're on your own, bub" the
next week,
while the door keypad is a broken mess and you could bleed to death on
the street trying to get into the building. That plus lax password
policy, which Max is thankfully trying to change, before "be aware of
your surroundings" also ends up meaning "because they might get inside."
And since they DID get inside your HOME, should you have carried a
pistol in your home as well?
How'bout hire a professional security contractor to install a reliable
door entry system? Or are we also supposed to pretend we know how to
perform open-heart surgery, after all, it begins with the word "open" as
in "free beer," so why not?
Let's be clear about this: looney left anti-police bravado, and looney
right you're-on-your-own-bub bravado, add up to a hill of horse shit.
If the city is crawling with predators, the problem isn't you or I or
even Chris Ad-Hom Hand Grenade Bee: the problem is the fucking
predators, and the thing to do with them is lock them up where they
can't prey on people who are merely trying to live their lives.
And I am NOT accusing Chris Bee of siding with the muggers. I'm
accusing him of espousing the looney right wing you're-on-your-own
bullshit, wrapped up in looney left language about entitlement.
People damn well ARE entitled to walk down the fucking street without
being in constant fear for their lives.
Enough was enough a few thousand murders, rapes, and robberies ago.
-G.
======
On 13-12-02-Mon 7:22 PM, David Keenan wrote:
Whoa! I don't think Chris is saying
'Blame the victim' at all. We've
probably all been in dicey situations and been threatened at the very
least, emotions run high on this issue but I'd urge you not to channel
your anger around that on Chris. To my mind, he's just saying we all
have to be aware of our surroundings and safety no matter where we
are, which makes sense. Not that its the victim's fault. As Bruce
Schneier has outlined, there are tradeoffs between freedom and safety
that we navigate every day - sometimes we suffer because of it, and
that fucking sucks, but does that mean we all should move to the
suburbs? I've been robbed in my own home, which feels a damn sight
safer than walking down Broadway, and I think that was Chris's point.
Please don't accuse him of siding with muggers or some such sentiment.
No one's going there -
Love,
David
On Monday, December 2, 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
Re. Sonja:
Exactly what I've done: not gone back to SudoRoom after having had
a gun pointed at my guts right in the doorway. Chances are at
least one person reading this is pleased with that outcome, but at
least four I know aren't.
Re. ChrisBee:
Right, blame the fucking victims, three or four of us that I know
of who've been robbed, assaulted, or had car windows smashed and
stuff stolen coming & going from SR or parked nearby, and possibly
one or two I missed.
Let's see, where have we heard your line of bullshit before?...
she shouldn't have been wearing those clothes either...? I take
it you agree with that too.
I'll quote you directly for what comes next, just so the context
of my reply is clear:
"Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions
about this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to
such-and-such area" I think "Wow, if that isn't
privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know what is."
Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying."
So it's "privilege/entitlement/self-absorption" to value being in
a safe location where you're less likely to be subjected to
violence on the street? I'm going to say something to you that I
haven't said to anyone in a damn long time: Go fuck yourself.
-G.
=====
On 13-12-02-Mon 6:02 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
Yeah but what if taking responsibility for
your safety means not
going where you've been robbed before?
On Monday, December 2, 2013, Chris Bee wrote:
(shakes head, sighs)
I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases,
putting the onus of personal safety on a neighborhood is
totally missing the point that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR
OWN SAFETY, full stop. Saying that you are (relatively) more
or less safe depending on where you are is...is...well, it's
wrong thinking on so many levels that I don't even know where
to begin.
Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read
discussions about this based around "how safe is so-and-so
compared to such-and-such area" I think "Wow, if that isn't
privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know what
is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying. I
like and respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm
pointing this out. I don't want anyone to be lulled into a
false sense of security/anxiety by thinking that just because
you're in one area bad shit is less prone to happen to you,
or vice versa. It's on all of us to be aware of what's going
on around us and to be prepared to deal with whatever
situations may come our way, alone or otherwise. Good
Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops are...well, the odds of
them being there when you "need" them (I personally don't)
are next to nil, and they only seem to make things
complicated after the fact.
What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space
that meets the needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many
important discussions get derailed like this, and right now I
think this is pretty high on our list of immediate concerns.
And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue
I'm all ears/eyes.
Respectfully,
-chrisbee
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss
<sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized where 8th and
Alice is - I saw "8th st" and "near BART" and thought
you
were talking about w Oakland BART.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is
"pretty mixed" racially and culturally, what is it
that leads you to conclude that Amber was talking
about black people, and commenting on race?
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss
<sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit.
Did you know, some of them like coffee shops
also? some of them can read? Some of them have
computers? Some of them might become sudo
members? Black people are pretty similar to
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org');>
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
4 Dec
4 Dec
8:01 p.m.
I'm bowing out of this one...not taking back what I said, I'm just not
inclined to argue with any sudoers like this. Discuss yes, argue...not so
much. Nor am I interested in having to take broadsides or ad hominem
attacks from people I've never met in person before. It wasn't my intention
to further derail the conversation, but to point out something that I felt
was being glossed over that needed to be acknowledged.
Carry on as you see fit.
-chrisbee
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:58 PM, rhodey <rhodey(a)anhonesteffort.org> wrote:
Can we take this off list please? If people would like
to discuss this
further I offer my help in arranging a meeting where anyone interested
can do so.
--
-- rhodey ˙ ͜ʟ˙
On 12/02/2013 08:54 PM, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
David:
I'm not telepathic enough to know what he MEANT, but what he SAID was
off-the-scale obnoxious and offensive.
YEAH, we all have to be aware of our surroundings, and blah blah blah.
Guess what? It doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Look at the
crime maps of Oakland. The whole fucking downtown is a fucking war
zone, up and down Broadway, at all times including in broad daylight.
Meanwhile SudoList lurches between the looney left and the looney right:
"fuck the police" one week, and "you're on your own, bub" the
next week,
while the door keypad is a broken mess and you could bleed to death on
the street trying to get into the building. That plus lax password
policy, which Max is thankfully trying to change, before "be aware of
your surroundings" also ends up meaning "because they might get inside."
And since they DID get inside your HOME, should you have carried a
pistol in your home as well?
How'bout hire a professional security contractor to install a reliable
door entry system? Or are we also supposed to pretend we know how to
perform open-heart surgery, after all, it begins with the word "open" as
in "free beer," so why not?
Let's be clear about this: looney left anti-police bravado, and looney
right you're-on-your-own-bub bravado, add up to a hill of horse shit.
If the city is crawling with predators, the problem isn't you or I or
even Chris Ad-Hom Hand Grenade Bee: the problem is the fucking
predators, and the thing to do with them is lock them up where they
can't prey on people who are merely trying to live their lives.
And I am NOT accusing Chris Bee of siding with the muggers. I'm
accusing him of espousing the looney right wing you're-on-your-own
bullshit, wrapped up in looney left language about entitlement.
People damn well ARE entitled to walk down the fucking street without
being in constant fear for their lives.
Enough was enough a few thousand murders, rapes, and robberies ago.
-G.
======
On 13-12-02-Mon 7:22 PM, David Keenan wrote:
> Whoa! I don't think Chris is saying 'Blame the victim' at all. We've
> probably all been in dicey situations and been threatened at the very
> least, emotions run high on this issue but I'd urge you not to channel
> your anger around that on Chris. To my mind, he's just saying we all
> have to be aware of our surroundings and safety no matter where we
> are, which makes sense. Not that its the victim's fault. As Bruce
> Schneier has outlined, there are tradeoffs between freedom and safety
> that we navigate every day - sometimes we suffer because of it, and
> that fucking sucks, but does that mean we all should move to the
> suburbs? I've been robbed in my own home, which feels a damn sight
> safer than walking down Broadway, and I think that was Chris's point.
> Please don't accuse him of siding with muggers or some such sentiment.
> No one's going there -
>
> Love,
> David
>
> On Monday, December 2, 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
>
>
> Re. Sonja:
>
> Exactly what I've done: not gone back to SudoRoom after having had
> a gun pointed at my guts right in the doorway. Chances are at
> least one person reading this is pleased with that outcome, but at
> least four I know aren't.
>
> Re. ChrisBee:
>
> Right, blame the fucking victims, three or four of us that I know
> of who've been robbed, assaulted, or had car windows smashed and
> stuff stolen coming & going from SR or parked nearby, and possibly
> one or two I missed.
>
> Let's see, where have we heard your line of bullshit before?...
> she shouldn't have been wearing those clothes either...? I take
> it you agree with that too.
>
> I'll quote you directly for what comes next, just so the context
> of my reply is clear:
>
> "Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions
> about this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to
> such-and-such area" I think "Wow, if that isn't
> privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know what is."
> Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying."
>
> So it's "privilege/entitlement/self-absorption" to value being in
> a safe location where you're less likely to be subjected to
> violence on the street? I'm going to say something to you that I
> haven't said to anyone in a damn long time: Go fuck yourself.
>
> -G.
>
>
> =====
>
>
> On 13-12-02-Mon 6:02 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:
>> Yeah but what if taking responsibility for your safety means not
>> going where you've been robbed before?
>>
>> On Monday, December 2, 2013, Chris Bee wrote:
>>
>> (shakes head, sighs)
>>
>> I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases,
>> putting the onus of personal safety on a neighborhood is
>> totally missing the point that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR
>> OWN SAFETY, full stop. Saying that you are (relatively) more
>> or less safe depending on where you are is...is...well, it's
>> wrong thinking on so many levels that I don't even know where
>> to begin.
>>
>> Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read
>> discussions about this based around "how safe is so-and-so
>> compared to such-and-such area" I think "Wow, if that
isn't
>> privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know what
>> is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying. I
>> like and respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm
>> pointing this out. I don't want anyone to be lulled into a
>> false sense of security/anxiety by thinking that just because
>> you're in one area bad shit is less prone to happen to you,
>> or vice versa. It's on all of us to be aware of what's going
>> on around us and to be prepared to deal with whatever
>> situations may come our way, alone or otherwise. Good
>> Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops are...well, the odds of
>> them being there when you "need" them (I personally don't)
>> are next to nil, and they only seem to make things
>> complicated after the fact.
>>
>> What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space
>> that meets the needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
>>
>> Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many
>> important discussions get derailed like this, and right now I
>> think this is pretty high on our list of immediate concerns.
>>
>> And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue
>> I'm all ears/eyes.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> -chrisbee
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss
>> <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized where 8th and
>> Alice is - I saw "8th st" and "near BART" and
thought you
>> were talking about w Oakland BART.
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>>
>> Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland is
>> "pretty mixed" racially and culturally, what is it
>> that leads you to conclude that Amber was talking
>> about black people, and commenting on race?
>>
>> Pete
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss
>> <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah you need to give black people more credit.
>> Did you know, some of them like coffee shops
>> also? some of them can read? Some of them have
>> computers? Some of them might become sudo
>> members? Black people are pretty similar to
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', '
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org');>
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
2 Dec
2 Dec
9:44 p.m.
I totally agree. Any potential space is still gonna be Oakland, and even
relatively nice parts of Oakland are still rife with crime.
On Dec 2, 2013 4:32 PM, "Chris Bee" <hotelcompany(a)gmail.com> wrote:
(shakes head, sighs)
I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases, putting the
onus of personal safety on a neighborhood is totally missing the point that
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, full stop. Saying that you are
(relatively) more or less safe depending on where you are is...is...well,
it's wrong thinking on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.
Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions about this
based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to such-and-such area" I think
"Wow, if that isn't privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I don't know
what is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying. I like and
respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm pointing this out. I don't
want anyone to be lulled into a false sense of security/anxiety by thinking
that just because you're in one area bad shit is less prone to happen to
you, or vice versa. It's on all of us to be aware of what's going on around
us and to be prepared to deal with whatever situations may come our way,
alone or otherwise. Good Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops are...well,
the odds of them being there when you "need" them (I personally don't) are
next to nil, and they only seem to make things complicated after the fact.
What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space that meets
the needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many important
discussions get derailed like this, and right now I think this is pretty
high on our list of immediate concerns.
And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue I'm all
ears/eyes.
Respectfully,
-chrisbee
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized
where 8th and Alice is - I saw
"8th st" and "near BART" and thought you were talking about w Oakland
BART.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland
is "pretty mixed"
racially and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber
was talking about black people, and commenting on race?
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of
them like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have
computers? Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty
similar to white people and like lots of the same things!!! Wow.
In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots burners and anarchists
there that would like sudo room too. My roommate Randall will be there
every day if you move to 8th and Alice.
Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried about the harmful
effects of gentrification, I'm happy to brainstorm how to accomplish these
two specific goals:
Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing projects move or
be converted. (This will not be a real concern for 25 years, but still)
Make new building in w o very very easy. The main attractive feature of
w O is cheapness of rent. We still have plenty of empty space. There is no
reason that supply tightness should cause rents to rise for 50 more years
SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Everybody has different views on gentrification. But speaking for
myself, the kind that bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site
parking where rich people get cheap real estate and then have zero
incentive or inclination to engage with their neighbors. They drive to
work, drive to Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their
balconies while their neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike
front doors to the recycling center.
Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build the kind of
community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to
imagine Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
unexpected happened, I think its community would act quickly to correct the
problem.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . <
amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It should be noted that aiming for a space in a "less-gentrified"
neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two of
the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART in a
neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur BART,
and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big
separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
--
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
3 Dec
3 Dec
12:19 p.m.
I agree about taking this off-list.
I get sad when I look at this sort of interaction within our community
telling other people to directly and personally to fuck off and how they
are full of shit. If we treat eachother this way, how are we going to
change our larger communities, oakland, or the world?
Ad hominem attacks and people bleeding anger all over some online
discussion about an issue like crime are a real negative for our community
and makes an excellent case for why listservs like sudo-discuss can
fracture communities as much as scaffold them. For whatever reason, the
medium of online discussion itself (be it email or forums or whatever) just
allows us to read negatively into things FAR more so than if we were all
conversing in person. I don't know why that is, but it just is, it was that
way on every BBS I logged into long before the internet, and it's still
that way now.
If we truly want to have an actual community online as well as off -- that
is, not just an imaginary community that exists in our heads, but an active
community of camaraderie and mutual aid and collective, productive effort
that effects itself in way beneficial to its members -- that is, a
community in any positive, meaningful sense of the term -- then we all have
a real moral responsibility to one another to be extra vigilant against
this phenomenon, in which anything remotely negative written over email or
virtually any disagreement can become affectively amplified on the
receiving end.
Or can we not be grown up enough to strongly disagree about issues without
hurling epithets right into someone's face? Can we really not bring
yourself at least to say, "fuck that", instead of "fuck you"?
l'chaim, yo -
David
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 9:44 PM, David Rorex <drorex(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I totally agree. Any potential space is still gonna be
Oakland, and even
relatively nice parts of Oakland are still rife with crime.
On Dec 2, 2013 4:32 PM, "Chris Bee" <hotelcompany(a)gmail.com> wrote:
(shakes head, sighs)
I've said it before and I'll say it again...in most cases, putting the
onus of personal safety on a neighborhood is totally missing the point that
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, full stop. Saying that you are
(relatively) more or less safe depending on where you are is...is...well,
it's wrong thinking on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.
Feel free to disagree with me, but when I hear/read discussions about
this based around "how safe is so-and-so compared to such-and-such area" I
think "Wow, if that isn't privilege/entitlement/self-absorption then I
don't know what is." Not saying that any of you are, but I'm just saying. I
like and respect my sudo peoples...a lot. That's why I'm pointing this out.
I don't want anyone to be lulled into a false sense of security/anxiety by
thinking that just because you're in one area bad shit is less prone to
happen to you, or vice versa. It's on all of us to be aware of what's going
on around us and to be prepared to deal with whatever situations may come
our way, alone or otherwise. Good Samaritans notwithstanding, the cops
are...well, the odds of them being there when you "need" them (I personally
don't) are next to nil, and they only seem to make things complicated after
the fact.
What we should be focused on is locating an affordable space that meets
the needs of BAPS/sudo/CCL.
Sorry if I seem a little impatient but I've seen too many important
discussions get derailed like this, and right now I think this is pretty
high on our list of immediate concerns.
And again, If anyone wants to straighten me out on this issue I'm all
ears/eyes.
Respectfully,
-chrisbee
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
Oh man I'm I total idiot, I just realized
where 8th and Alice is - I saw
"8th st" and "near BART" and thought you were talking about w Oakland
BART.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
Sonja, given that -- as you say -- West Oakland
is "pretty mixed"
racially and culturally, what is it that leads you to conclude that Amber
was talking about black people, and commenting on race?
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of
them like coffee shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have
computers? Some of them might become sudo members? Black people are pretty
similar to white people and like lots of the same things!!! Wow.
In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots burners and
anarchists there that would like sudo room too. My roommate Randall will be
there every day if you move to 8th and Alice.
Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried about the harmful
effects of gentrification, I'm happy to brainstorm how to accomplish these
two specific goals:
Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing projects move or
be converted. (This will not be a real concern for 25 years, but still)
Make new building in w o very very easy. The main attractive feature of
w O is cheapness of rent. We still have plenty of empty space. There is no
reason that supply tightness should cause rents to rise for 50 more years
SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Everybody has different views on gentrification. But speaking for
myself, the kind that bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site
parking where rich people get cheap real estate and then have zero
incentive or inclination to engage with their neighbors. They drive to
work, drive to Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their
balconies while their neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike
front doors to the recycling center.
Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build the kind of
community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to
imagine Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something
unexpected happened, I think its community would act quickly to correct the
problem.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . <
amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It should be noted that aiming for a space in a "less-gentrified"
neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's presence would have
a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at another space that could
potentially be a new sudo space.
We've started gathering information about it here:
https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
My personal feeling about the space is:
This is an awesome space with lots of natural light. It addresses two
of the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two blocks from BART
in a neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur
BART, and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one
drawback in comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a
big separate common area for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in
almost every way.
--
marc/juul
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26 Nov
26 Nov
3:01 p.m.
25 and 50 years - how are you calculating this? there is a risk of this happening much
sooner. the condo/loft construction all got put on ice circa 2008 but investors are
licking their chops again. we've seen a huge influx of investment in the last 6
months alone, with people buying up property cash in hand. but i digress
to touch on concerns that sudo room would have a gentrifying effect, i think residential
development is the real driver of gentrification, not hackerspaces that thrive on low
rents and make an effort to engage the community. there is on the flipside the concern
for safety of users of the space, which is valid. i also think aiming for a crime-free
area is impractical and counter to our mission.
Nov 26, 2013 10:13:27 AM, sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com wrote:
Yeah you need to give black people more credit. Did you know, some of them like coffee
shops also? some of them can read? Some of them have computers? Some of them might become
sudo members? Black people are pretty similar to white people and like lots of the same
things!!! Wow.
Matt, Jenny and myself went and looked at
another space that could potentially be a new sudo space.
>We've started gathering information
about it here:
> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/8th_and_Alice
>My personal feeling about the space is:
>This is an awesome space with lots of
natural light. It addresses two of the major concerns raised about The Omni in being two
blocks from BART in a neighborhood that seems/feels safer than the area around MacArthur
BART, and in being located in a less gentrified neighborhood. The one drawback in
comparing it to the current space and The Omni is the lack of a big separate common area
for events. It is _very_ similar to Noisebridge in almost every way.
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In any case w. O. Is pretty mixed. There are lots
burners and anarchists there that would like sudo room too. My roommate Randall will be
there every day if you move to 8th and Alice.
Listen if anyone on this list is actually worried about the harmful effects of
gentrification, I'm happy to brainstorm how to accomplish these two specific
goals:Under no circumstances should the west Oakland housing projects move or be
converted. (This will not be a real concern for 25 years, but still)
Make new building in w o very very easy. The main attractive feature of w O is
cheapness of rent. We still have plenty of empty space. There is no reason that supply
tightness should cause rents to rise for 50 more years SO LONG AS ANTI GENTRIFICATION
concerns DONT PREVENT NEW BUILDING.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Pete Forsyth wrote:
Everybody has different views on gentrification. But speaking for myself, the kind that
bothers me is the high-security condos with on-site parking where rich people get cheap
real estate and then have zero incentive or inclination to engage with their neighbors.
They drive to work, drive to Whole Foods, and in between sit behind bars on their
balconies while their neighbors push shopping carts by their fortresslike front doors to
the recycling center.
Sudo Room *exists* to build community. It may not build
the kind of community that everybody wants to participate in, but it does offer
opportunities that don't exist absent a hacker space. It's hard for me to imagine
Sudo Room doing damage to its neighborhood, and even if something unexpected happened, I
think its community would act quickly to correct the problem.
Pete
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM, AnimationAmber . amberyadaanimation(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It should be noted that aiming for a space in a
"less-gentrified" neighborhood does overlook the possibility that Sudo's
presence would have a gentrifying effect. Thoughts?
-amber
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Marc Juul
juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote:
4034
days inactive
4043
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27 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
Alex U -
AnimationAmber . -
Chris Bee -
Danny Spitzberg -
David Keenan -
David Rorex -
GtwoG PublicOhOne -
Hol Gaskill -
Marc Juul -
Marina Kukso -
Pete Forsyth -
rhodey -
Sonja Trauss -
Tracy Jacobs