28 Oct
2013
28 Oct
'13
11:19 a.m.
Hi all,
A few weeks ago, I participated in a panel on Women in Wireless at the
International Summit for Community WIreless Networks in Berlin. The
presenters were excellent, and I found the audience wonderfully receptive
and engaged with the issue of women's participation in wireless networking
communities.
Among the points I emphasized was the need to expand the definition of
'geek' to include for instance language geeks, theory buffs, writers,
critical thinkers of whatever medium, etc. An expansive and inclusive
notion of hacking is something the sudo community upholds admirably well, I
think. At the same time, our radically inclusive approach brings about the
danger of excluding those who do not feel safe or welcome in the presence
of certain behaviors, and as such means we must continually work to
cultivate safe
space<https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Articles_of_Association#Section_2.3_Bene…
.
A colleague whom I met at the conference shared this paper with me, and I'd
like to share it with y'all. The points made by Reagle are particularly
relevant to the Sudo Room community:
"Free as in Sexist?" Free Culture and the Gender Gap, by Joseph Reagle
(2013)
http://www.firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/4291/3381
Happy to discuss further,
Jenny
http://jennyryan.net
http://thepyre.org
http://thevirtualcampfire.org
http://technomadic.tumblr.com
`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
"Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
-Laurie Anderson
"Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining it."
-Hannah Arendt
"To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
-Stéphane Mallarmé
~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
28 Oct
28 Oct
1:13 p.m.
New subject: "Free as in sexist?" Free Culture and the Gender Gap
Thanks Jenny, I really liked that article. One of the things that struck a
chord with me was how aggressiveness and defensiveness are encouraged in
the programming community as positive traits, but also serve to discourage
many prospective members from joining that community.
I would associate that sort of aggressiveness, which I've both exhibited
and experienced, with "Moral Anger", a feeling that I was Right and that
people's opinions were wrong because they did not agree. It's a very
motivating emotion that compels me to try and convince someone of my
opinions, usually by raising my voice and bringing up emotionally jarring
rationale behind why I am right. If through this I compel people to either
agree or leave the discussion, it ultimately makes me think I "won",
probably boosting my testosterone levels - a nasty positive feedback loop.
I consider it a bug, not a feature, of my brain.
The one night I was at sudo room for a weekly meeting, I was impressed by
what I perceived from a female sudo member as actively choosing to not
engage in argumentative discussion, and discouraging the playing of devil's
advocate by another member. It was eye-opening and heartening to see
someone actively choose not to escalate the discussion, and instead look
for a more productive means of conversation.
I've seen so often that conversations about simple things quickly turn to
heated arguments where anger plays a dominant role in communication. Is
there any mode of thought or movement out there to actively reduce the role
of anger in discussions and compromise? Certainly people would benefit from
such a change in mentality. Perhaps emphasizing the role of understanding
and compassion in place of anger and argument, especially by people who
typically focus on the latter, would be progress in that direction.
mike
On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
A few weeks ago, I participated in a panel on Women in Wireless at the
International Summit for Community WIreless Networks in Berlin. The
presenters were excellent, and I found the audience wonderfully receptive
and engaged with the issue of women's participation in wireless networking
communities.
Among the points I emphasized was the need to expand the definition of
'geek' to include for instance language geeks, theory buffs, writers,
critical thinkers of whatever medium, etc. An expansive and inclusive
notion of hacking is something the sudo community upholds admirably well, I
think. At the same time, our radically inclusive approach brings about the
danger of excluding those who do not feel safe or welcome in the presence
of certain behaviors, and as such means we must continually work to
cultivate safe
space<https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Articles_of_Association#Section_2.3_Bene…
.
A colleague whom I met at the conference shared this paper with me, and
I'd like to share it with y'all. The points made by Reagle are particularly
relevant to the Sudo Room community:
"Free as in Sexist?" Free Culture and the Gender Gap, by Joseph Reagle
(2013)
http://www.firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/4291/3381
Happy to discuss further,
Jenny
http://jennyryan.net
http://thepyre.org
http://thevirtualcampfire.org
http://technomadic.tumblr.com
`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
"Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
-Laurie Anderson
"Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining it."
-Hannah Arendt
"To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
-Stéphane Mallarmé
~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
3:47 p.m.
New subject: "Free as in sexist?" Free Culture and the Gender Gap
On 28 October 2013 18:19, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas(a)gmail.com> wrote:
"Free as in Sexist?" Free Culture and the Gender Gap, by Joseph Reagle
(2013)
http://www.firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/4291/3381
Happy to discuss further,
I'd like to point out the numerous fallacies and mis-characterizations in
the piece, and particularly in the stated argument, but I fear the
accusation of misogyny. ;-)
Cheers,
Tom
p.s.
I agree with the author's general point, (of which you hardly need an
appeal to statistics to comprehend the magnitude of the disparity), that
the development of software which has such impact globally, should be done
by a group with such a narrow range of values, is enormously undesirable.
However the material is just re-hashing the narrative of socially inept men
victimizing women, because of their own inadequacies.
The message from society, both culturally and economically, is that it's
fine to be a sweaty basement dweller, and we will forgive you for your
various socialization issues, as long as you produce economically valuable
technology by the bucket load.
The current society values goal orientated behaviour more than it values
equality of opportunity, and certainly more than if values equality of
outcome.
So while there is left wing hand wringing, and papers in sociology journals
entitled "How do we fix this disparity?", the rest of society (those with
the money, those with the power) are tacitly approving and generating
enormous financial and social incentives to reinforce the situation.
29 Oct
29 Oct
5:38 p.m.
New subject: "Free as in sexist?" Free Culture and the Gender Gap
Seems like you didn't actually read the piece.
"The message from society, both culturally and economically, is that
it's fine to be a sweaty basement dweller, and we will forgive you for
your various socialization issues, as long as you produce economically
valuable technology by the bucket load."
No, the message from society is that it's fine to be a sweaty basement
dwelling MAN, and we will not only forgive you when you are abrasive
and argumentative but reward you for it.
That's exactly the opposite of what women experience.
Women find that the more they emulate their male peers in order to fit
into the industry, the worse they fare in everything from job
interviews to asking for raises to contract negotiations. And women
who remain demure are better liked but receive very little in the way
of career success.
This systemic problem far transcends "the narrative of socially inept
men victimizing women, because of their own inadequacies."
On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Tom Hodder <tom(a)limepepper.co.uk> wrote:
On 28 October 2013 18:19, Jenny Ryan
<tunabananas(a)gmail.com> wrote:
--
Naomi Theora Most
naomi(a)nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490
skype: nthmost
http://twitter.com/nthmost
"Free as in Sexist?" Free Culture and the Gender Gap, by Joseph Reagle
(2013)
http://www.firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/4291/3381
Happy to discuss further,
I'd like to point out the numerous fallacies and mis-characterizations in
the piece, and particularly in the stated argument, but I fear the
accusation of misogyny. ;-)
Cheers,
Tom
p.s.
I agree with the author's general point, (of which you hardly need an appeal
to statistics to comprehend the magnitude of the disparity), that the
development of software which has such impact globally, should be done by a
group with such a narrow range of values, is enormously undesirable.
However the material is just re-hashing the narrative of socially inept men
victimizing women, because of their own inadequacies.
The message from society, both culturally and economically, is that it's
fine to be a sweaty basement dweller, and we will forgive you for your
various socialization issues, as long as you produce economically valuable
technology by the bucket load.
The current society values goal orientated behaviour more than it values
equality of opportunity, and certainly more than if values equality of
outcome.
So while there is left wing hand wringing, and papers in sociology journals
entitled "How do we fix this disparity?", the rest of society (those with
the money, those with the power) are tacitly approving and generating
enormous financial and social incentives to reinforce the situation.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
7:24 p.m.
New subject: "Free as in sexist?" Free Culture and the Gender Gap
On 30 October 2013 00:38, Naomi Most <pnaomi(a)gmail.com> wrote:
No, the message from society is that it's fine to
be a sweaty basement
dwelling MAN,
Apologies, that's what I meant, I intended it be implied by the context.
and we will not only forgive you when you are
abrasive
and argumentative but reward you for it.
I don't think its fair to say that society is in general rewarding these
behaviours directly, but that society rewards these behaviours when they
lead to substantial economic outputs, which society does value directly.
However the converse of the incentives dynamic, is that what that does lead
to, is "slap on the wrist" type punishments for misogyny and unacceptable
behaviour, and the "letting of things go" which wouldn't be tolerated in
other contexts because of this latitude granted. Really it's like a bad
1970s comedy with Alf Garnett.
The author only briefly mentions "tyranny of the elite", the gender
distinction of the subjectivity of the interpretation of these behaviours.
The author seems to miss or skim over major contributing factors to the
gender disparity issue, and just quote mine from Susan Herring, or ....
well I think you get the idea that I didn't take to this type of
investigation ... (Maybe articles written as "naturalistic inquiry" take a
bit getting used to, it read like quote mining to support the author's
position... rather than scientific enquiry.)
That's exactly the opposite of what women
experience.
My argument isn't to diminish your experience, or justify it, but instead
to point out that the author does not do a good job to investigate the
issues sustaining it.
This systemic problem far transcends "the narrative of socially inept
men victimizing women, because of their own
inadequacies."
I completely agree.
However the author doesn't seem to think so, because the abstract is almost
entirely consistent with that narrative:
(a) some geek identities can be narrow and unappealing; (social inept men)
(b) open communities are especially susceptible to difficult people (men
victimizing women)
(c) the ideas of freedom and openness can be used to dismiss concerns and
rationalize the gender gap as a matter of preference and choice.. (and the
internet has some very rude people and people are very mean, and other
Barnum statements)
So as you can tell, I didn't get on with that article at all, however I
looked up the author and was surprised to see who it was, and "Good Faith
Collaboration" seems a pretty good read;
http://reagle.org/joseph/2010/gfc/chapter-1.html
Cheers,
Tom
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days inactive
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4 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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Jenny Ryan -
Mike Schachter -
Naomi Most -
Tom Hodder