From: refugia <refugia(a)zoho.com>
> The time you put into these emails are your own choice. The sudolist is much
> larger than sudo's membership. I'm not sure who either of you are. I don't
> see you at sudo. I don't sympathize with your or Sonya's perspectives but
> you are probably both well interventioned. Sniping on burner's cultural
> appropriate of indigenous culture is bit too easy and those types of
> discussions are best had in person if your intent is not malicious. People
> get defensive and close off if they think they are being called out as
> racist.
I disagree with a couple of your premises. I think naming cultural
appropriation is an important job to be done, even more important than
cleaning the toilets or emptying the trash bins. It's not easy, it's
hard. It's socially risky. And speaking our truths is so important, it
doesn't often feel like a simple choice.
> If your intent is to be politically correct in your speech don't use the
> terms hispanic or latino, especially when talking to strangers. In the
> liberal lexicon they are vague racial-cultural. Just say spanish speaking,
> if that's what you mean and won't confuse people further. People are
> confused on their own.
You know what else you probably shouldn't do when talking to strangers
you don't know? Lecturing them about THEIR identity politics.
Especially when they've made it pretty clear how they feel on the
subject, and asked not to be contacted off-list.
> The terms latino and hispanic are used to erase peoples indigenous identity.
> I think that sort language and the obfuscating conception of race are much
> more damaging than white people painting skeletons on their face or making
> altars. Call first nation peoples by their actual names. Don't lump them all
> together. It's a habit that americans should stop, especially if they regard
> themselves as some sort of radical.
>
> The holiday is a derivative of the Nahua holiday. Speaking spanish doesn't
> give one special dibs on venerating their dead. In Mexico it's been
> appropriated by mexicans broadly, by non-Nahuatl speaking indigenous
> peoples, mesitizos and white mexicans. In mexico it's a constructed national
> holiday (like american halloween) with a multitude of local variations. You
> don't get this sort of exclusionary discourse about who can participate in
> the holiday in Mexico but you do see criticism of Halloween elements being
> included in dia de los muertos. In the post-revolution era there was a
> campaign to invent a national identity in a huge and extremely diverse
> territory. The sugar skulls used in dias in other part of Abya Yala are
> post-colonial. Sugar aint from here:)
Patrick, I think of all the things in your email, this bothers me the
most. It seems like you're responding to an argument about power and
turning it into an argument about authenticity. Claiming a cultural
marker has very little to do with what is or isn't "pre-colonial" - it
has everything to do with the power relationships involved. The part
about sugar not being native to the Americas is especially
problematic, given the role sugar played in colonization, slavery,
genocide, and construction of the racial categories that still give
white people disproportionate wealth and power today.
> There are other related versions of the holiday not related to the Nahuah,
> Guede, Finados. All souls day is a european christian holiday which is part
> of many the of the modern syncretic versions of the holiday. Most
> traditional cultures on all continents have a similar holiday around this
> time year.
Misses the point. It's about power, not authenticity.
> What does it mean to establish consent with another culture, consent to
> participate in ceremony? There real tensions in between the ideas of the
> free culture movement and left wing attempts at non-colonial intercultural
> relations y understanding.
On that, we agree. There certainly are. Personally, I think it
illustrates the limits of "freedom" as a concept, which is one of the
many reasons I am not a liberal, a neoliberal or a libertarian.
> Anywhoo the only event happening at the omni is a Haitian dance performance.
> There was no proposal for the event at a sudo or omni meeting. It's not
> worth spending that much time writing emails.
*says it's not worth time writing emails*
*writes a long email*
Bringing this back to the list because, as per usual I do not enjoy being
contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about white
people's entitlement to my culture.
This is a problem.
-hep
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia. Philadelphia is 45,45,10 black,
> white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian, Vietnamese,
> Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day of the dead is
> really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I never went to a
> DD party, or even really had heard of it.
>
> Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I never
> meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There are more
> Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic population here
> bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike Philadelphia,
> settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans). The Spanish
> settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old buildings.
> The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak Spanish than the
> people I grew up with. the white people I meet here know more about Mexico
> and Central America than the ppl back east. The point is, California is a
> way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I lived before.
>
> Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover, it
> doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
> would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
> celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead) also
> makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
> Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists and non-Christians
> in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you can see that at on
> December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
> When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they want
> to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive here.
> Does that make sense?
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> hi guys:
>>
>> a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a Bay
>> Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly white people
>> with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in the actual
>> spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically if you don't
>> build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i find it really
>> problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are clearly not of
>> this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even more
>> questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
>> cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of reasons
>> but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to. what is
>> wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to the
>> ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
>>
>> -hep
>>
>> * edited this to be less of a jerk.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell <zvezdalune(a)gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Hello!
>>> >
>>> > The Omni needs funds. Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We would like to
>>> > introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
>>> >
>>> > I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
>>> transhumanist/Dia de
>>> > los Muertos themed costume ball. Should this happen? Is there a reason
>>> > anyone would like to block?
>>> >
>>> > Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses! Post-singularity glittery
>>> > things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
>>>
>>> Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
>>>
>>> 1) check the calendar for conflicts:
>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
>>>
>>> 2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
>>>
>>> Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
>> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>>
>
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
Yet another white person (assuming) steps forth to tell me how to display
and refer to my own culture.
Massively awkward when white people try and educate hispanic and/or latino
people on how to self-identify. Ironically I use hispanic and latino
because most white people don't understand what chicano means. Also as
someone who is 1/4 Jicarilla Apache, I also do not need a lesson on First
Nations identification either.
-Hep
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: refugia <refugia(a)zoho.com>
Date: Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 2:57 PM
Subject: Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is
happening?
To: hepkitten(a)gmail.com
The time you put into these emails are your own choice. The sudolist is
much larger than sudo's membership. I'm not sure who either of you are. I
don't see you at sudo. I don't sympathize with your or Sonya's perspectives
but you are probably both well interventioned. Sniping on burner's cultural
appropriate of indigenous culture is bit too easy and those types of
discussions are best had in person if your intent is not malicious. People
get defensive and close off if they think they are being called out as
racist.
If your intent is to be politically correct in your speech don't use the
terms hispanic or latino, especially when talking to strangers. In the
liberal lexicon they are vague racial-cultural. Just say spanish speaking,
if that's what you mean and won't confuse people further. People are
confused on their own.
The terms latino and hispanic are used to erase peoples indigenous
identity. I think that sort language and the obfuscating conception of race
are much more damaging than white people painting skeletons on their face
or making altars. Call first nation peoples by their actual names. Don't
lump them all together. It's a habit that americans should stop, especially
if they regard themselves as some sort of radical.
The holiday is a derivative of the Nahua holiday. Speaking spanish doesn't
give one special dibs on venerating their dead. In Mexico it's been
appropriated by mexicans broadly, by non-Nahuatl speaking indigenous
peoples, mesitizos and white mexicans. In mexico it's a constructed
national holiday (like american halloween) with a multitude of local
variations. You don't get this sort of exclusionary discourse about who can
participate in the holiday in Mexico but you do see criticism of Halloween
elements being included in dia de los muertos. In the post-revolution era
there was a campaign to invent a national identity in a huge and extremely
diverse territory. The sugar skulls used in dias in other part of Abya Yala
are post-colonial. Sugar aint from here:)
There are other related versions of the holiday not related to the Nahuah,
Guede, Finados. All souls day is a european christian holiday which is part
of many the of the modern syncretic versions of the holiday. Most
traditional cultures on all continents have a similar holiday around this
time year.
What does it mean to establish consent with another culture, consent to
participate in ceremony? There real tensions in between the ideas of the
free culture movement and left wing attempts at non-colonial intercultural
relations y understanding.
Anywhoo the only event happening at the omni is a Haitian dance
performance. There was no proposal for the event at a sudo or omni meeting.
It's not worth spending that much time writing emails.
Saludos,
Patrick
--
HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
