Re: [sudo-discuss] 9/16 Meeting Minutes

Recorded for posterity at: https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Meeting_Notes_2015-09-16 *Sudo Room Meeting 16 Sep 2015* =Intros= * Icebreaker: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? * Patrick Xu: 2 * Robb: As much as he had time to chuck * David Estrada: It's bodyweight, conservative estimate * Sigma: Depends on how much meth they've had * Romy: Why are woodchucks chucking wood to begin with, and why do they necessarily have to chuck wood at all? Is this an intelligence test? Am I part of an invisible algorithm, where my answers are being evaluated to avoid being thrown to the bottom of the pile? * rmt_daniel: Chuck is the diminutive of Charles. Save the trees. :) * Matt: One food not bombs truck-full and three space pods full, as that's how much wood this chuck and his chuck-friends have chucked today. * yar: the only way to find out is through a massive controlled study of woodchuck wood chucking * jenny: doesn't matter to me as long as the damn woodchuck is happy * juul: Even if a woodchuck could chuck wood and even if a woodchuck would chuck wood, should a woodchuck chuck wood? =Announcements= * sudo-humans is borked, specifically that important part where you sign up to pay dues ** What is the exact issue? Can you describe it, provide a screenshot, or a url? For how long now has this issue occurred? Any other information? ** Waiting for information *** jenny: don't know where the logs are. log in, go to your profile, then click edit -> edit recurring payment. blank page. mewp. juul & cap'n morgan are looking into it * Rent party on Saturday ** You should come, you should help - Sat 9/19 @ 10am - 8pm https://omnicommons.org/rentparty ** Matt will sell his heart out over anything you identify (and remove from sudo room!) as "rummage"!!!!!!111 ** Need to raise $5000 before the end of the month =Finances= * Paid October rent early to help buffer Omni's waning bank account. * Will need to pay imminently: $400 501c3 application filing fee, roughly $350 in shared utilities for September * After October rent, we currently have $976.49 in our account + $211.54 in Paypal/Gratipayments that's currently in transit to our account = $1,188.03 * Mid-August to Mid-September income: ** $1,064 in PayPal donations, weekly Gratipay payouts dwindling from $412 (Aug 20) to $130 (Sep 10). Some members also pay their dues through PayPal. ** Is due to not a full 30 days? ** $2,215 in Stripe donations, with a $1K abberant one-time donation = ~$1,215 coming in monthly from Stripe. Let's try to get more people using sudo-humans and aim for $2K as the next milestone! *** Currently 29 members are signed up for recurring donations via sudo-humans, though there are 51 members in the system. ** Total income during this period (15 Aug - 16 Sep) - $3,279 but $2,279 in regular donations so not quite breaking even atm =New Members= * New Member Script: https://sudoroom.org/wiki/New_Member_Script === david === * David would like to become a new member: ** Been here a few days, working on javascript ** Like it here ** How did you find: Heard from a friend. Noisebridge also came up. ** Why: Excited about javascript community, and the makerspace community. Hardware ** Learn: More javascript ** Teach: More javascript ** Plan to abolish (10w): Abolish the world, nuke the world. ** End planet troubles (10w): See previous answer ** Plan to ensure freedom(10w): Open source annihilation, everything is open source. ** Know about sudo?: Subscribe to hacker ethics, all that jazz, everything open, open firewalls. Likes #6 alot. ** Know about history?: Heard only been around for about a year. *** correct answer is 4 :) maybe should write a history page.. ** Know about SOS?: Reading ** Know about Safe space?: Also reading ** Been banned?: No ** Cop/etc/cat: No, no, no, not decided on status of cat. ** Happy: Getting in the zone, flow states, whatever gets me in the moment. ** 20+3: 23 ** Captcha?: I have no idea * Robb: I like NB encourages bribes.i was joking, * Matt: Know a place where you have to farm for hours before becoming possible member. (serfdom?) * rmt_daniel: sefdom, new word for me ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom). * jenny: erm, 'nuke the world'? ** yar: at least it's slightly better than the 'nuke the middle east' people. but still. 'throw up your hands' at best, 'white supremacy is human nature' at worst. ==Pondering== * 9/2 - 9/30: Benji * 8/25 - 9/23: Brendan - pondering ends next week = Proposals = * Quorum is unlocked/supercharged ==Liberation Ministries revised proposal for 'active non-member participation'== * Full proposal: https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2015-September/000638.html ** https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCTmZqcEV2F8mRiIO1eLbzQ * what is the longest trial period Sudoroom can consense on? 1 month? 3 months? ** yar: 2-3 months kind of sucks because it puts them in limbo right around christmas and new years which is a season they are probably doing more work than usual. Oct 1 - Feb 1 might make more sense. +1 good point ** Patrick: Would give them a powerful opportunity to shine going through the Christmas season. ** Matt: Everyone of the folks who shared a contention isn't here, except Robb. *** Sigma: Your point is factually false, lists names of some people here *** Matt: I concede the point, there are people here who have shared concerns, forgot about a few, sorry ** Robb: Most of my concerns were just clarifying statements on how different than the others of the collective (sorry missed most of this Robb) ** Patrick: Want to speak to the kinds of objections: Going through notes about objections to spirituality, religion, especially Christianity. Objections are to brainwashy/pyramid-scheme style religions like mormonism, jehovahs witnesses, which I agree with, manipulative patriarchal bullshit is bad. But recognize spirtuality is very diverse, and has been a principle component of social justice movements. Examples: Gandhi, MLK, Malcolm X are old school examples. Zapatistas are a contemporary example of a movement toward autonomy based on traditional mayan culture and religion, a case in point where anarchism and spirituality dovetail together. Objections are straw-man objections, so we should do trial period. There are valid objections, but there are big reasons to build these kinds of bridges. ** yar: if these people were anything like mormons, they'd already have a place. a big fancy modern place. also gandhi & mlk weren't anarchists... but anyway ** matt: Patrick is contending that many of the arguments by sudoers (on email and meeting notes) against working with Liberation Ministries are (at least in part) drawing that comparison, which ultimately seems misguided. ** Matt: Agree with Patrick, unfortunate that people on each side (supporting, or questioning) are seeing only distorted images of this eachother instead of the actual depth/complexity at hand here. This is why I am in pain, and why I have recused myself. *** yar will not be able to go to the delegates meeting tomorrow. matt, if sudoroom can consent to a trial period or abstain, are you willing to be a delegate then? ** yar: this is why a trial period is so important IMO. february will be here before we even know it. +1+1 Trial period! Woot woot! ** Romy: Uncomfortable going from 0 to 1 year. Trial period might be fine, we do that with our members. ** Matt: It seems like there might be a a dynamic between Cheryl and her ministry, where something they do in an event is perhaps a gesture of where their congregation is going to put their major energy. There hasn't been any effort so far in this space, and can't wrap my head around why that is. Maybe someone an omni person is advising that, maybe Cheryl's board, but unclear. *** Patrick: Inside their current proposal directly says they plan to be part of the Omni no matter what, even if there is no agreement. *** Sigma: Why haven't they done this already, in the current month since this got proposed? Seems like a red flag. *** Pat: direct response, peoples lives are crazy complicated, surviving in capitalism is hard. There may be good reason they haven't been able to devote time to hanging out in Omni without some formal commitment (long or short) *** Matt: Maybe a reason maybe not, maybe due to miscommunication that Cheryl believed she had to be a member in order to do stuff. Was clarified directly about a month ago. **** https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2015/08/27_Delegates_Meeting#Liberation_… **** yar: they asked permission first because that's what our website told them to do. and the reaction after this made them very skeptical about investing more time, energy & money if the omni community is going to reject them in the end. *** Sigma: listened to one of Cheryl's sermons and has an explicit objection to bringing in a christian organization that uses the bible and substantially supports things in the bible, unless things in there are specifically denied and crossed out, there are a plethora of bigoted, hateful, mysogynistic statements in the bible, an organization that uses this text and promotes it unquestioningly is a system of oppression. THey need to go the extra mile to show that they do not subscribe to the hateful parts of the bible. **** yar: they said they're aligned with everything in Omni's statement of solidarity!!! that is a thousand extra miles. *** Pat: So maybe we could formulate that question, "What is LM's relationship with the text of the bible, in detail?" And can we ask that question and explore it through a ~4 month trial period? **** yar: that is why we have a trial period. the answer is nuanced and we can learn this over time. *** yar: their practice is dependent on what people in their community need, it's not predetermined at all. these are not dogmatists, it's people who want to build community, infrastructure for mutual aid, and singing and dancing while doing it. feels like i'm talking to brick walls here. *** Sigma: Not at a point where I would block now, as the combination of support of a trial period and the non-member status makes LM's explicit bible support less tied to the values of the Omni. ** Matt: Thing in America where precident's matter, so it doesn't matter that law is established by judges, etc, but we shouldn't get trapped in the mindset where because we did it previously we should we do it this way. For ex, wasn't GWS founders who showed up, it was a chapter. We did explicitly scrutinized what they do, what they needed. They were excited to be working with other collectives. Several other collectives engaged in a trial period instead of forming a long-term committment at first. ** Sigma: Seems different as a christian church comes from a history of exploitation and oppression, so the default position is rejection and needs work to establish that it doesn't embody those patterns of history *** yar: they do. have you read the notes? these are our people. they are on our side. *** Matt: Agree with that, have talked about trauma as a default reaction. ** Max: There are many people here whose default reaction is "organized religion: no" and subsequently maybe this isn't the best place for LM *** yar: I am not ceding Omni to anti-religious bigots. I am simply not. I do not accept this argument. +1 ** Max: Maybe this isn't the space for LM, maybe they should just have a landlord. [who is saying this?] (his name is max) *** maybe this isn't the space for you ** Mary ward (walks in, stage right!): They are soliciting us for space, they explicitly want to be here. ** Robb: They want year lease, do other collectives do a year lease? *** Matt: No, it's different because the collectives can decide their own fate (didn't understand this exactly, feel free to fill in with more details) *** yar: we are hoping to offer them a trial period. that is what's up for consensus right now. ** Romy: Is the logic of a lease they are just forming their ministry? *** Matt: Yeah *** Robb: She's indicated once the ball is rolling she wants to keep it rolling in the same space ** Romy: 300 seems like such a low number for this space *** yar: this is not what's up for consensus right now. it's derailing the conversation. we are talking about a trial period. we can figure out the rest later. *** Patrick: Optik Illusions (sp?) is at 100 *** yar: we are an anti-capitalist space which charges based on need and ability, not market value ** Matt: It's complex because it's common space, like we have a computer there that they shouldn't move, in terms of Opti Allusions ** Matt: It also blocks off Sunday mornings so no other activities are possible *** yar: in the past year, only a handful of things happened on Sunday mornings. this may change eventually but probalby not much before February 1, which is the only period under consideration right now ** Robb: True for OI on friday ** Matt: Complex topic, many objections, many emotional responses. ** Patrick: Do we have consensus on trial period? ** Mary: It's really about the space, not used on Sunday ** Matt: Not true, data on the used space was incorrect, frustrated. Each side is not trying to understand all the issues, just pushing their perspective. *** yar: Ben's report from Commons WG was incorrect? Please can you back this up? Ben was a neutral third party in this, and this is new information for me, so it's not fair to use this as an example of me "not trying to understand" **** jenny: somewhat incorrect. as someone who stewarded a lot of events, many weekend events had early setup times or would come back the next day to finish cleaning. didn't account for the BACH unconference or the Free Marissa Caravan report-back, which maybe weren't listed properly on the calendar, just two events off the top of my head that I recall using the ballroom Sunday am. Also, our event requests are only increasing and we're likely to book more weekend-long events once we have our permits sorted. Just some points of info, I thought his report was otherwise fairly accurate. ***** +1, on top of that it's an infinite cycle ** Romy: Don't have bad feelings on this, necessarily complex topic. ** Sigma: Open question, given Omni slowness on making decisions, and given previous issues with La Commune lease termination, how would this trial period end? What happens if there are problems but not consensus on further inclusion? How would a problematic assocation be terminated? ** Romy: I don't understand why they didn't take the time to come here and get to know us? *** yar: see above. they followed the instructions on our website. **** Sigma: These were clarified about a month ago, nothing has happened since? **** yar: at that point they had heard so much deep anti-religious sentiment that they are clearly reluctant to invest much time without first getting a commitment from us that we can get past the religion thing **** Sigma: That interpretation contradicts explicit language in their proposal which says they will participate even if they aren't given a lease. **** yar: oh, i see what you're saying. yes it would be nice if people from LM could participate on a daily basis regardless. but i find myself having trouble with that lately, even. *** Mary: maybe miscommunication *** Matt: Totally agree, don't get it. "Not having services now" seems like cop-out. ** Sigma: Looks like Patrick is drafting a proposal, requesting explicit language that without an explicit Omni consensus to extend the trial period, if the trail period has elapse, their lease is terminated. Essentially want to avoid ambiguity, like as with happened with La Commune, and want to make a problematic sitation resolvable. *** yar: the issue with La Commune was leaving unexpectedly early and having a dysfunctional internal decisionmaking process due to everybody leaving, it's so not really comparable *** Sigma: Wasn't solely based on the La Commune situation, did want to provide an explicit outcome if their presence is problematic and there isn't a consensus that they should stay. ** Brendan: If this wasn't a church, would we be doing a trial period? *** Matt: Yes, this has happened before. *** Robb: In trial period now. *** Mary: Yeah and there is substantial scrutiny for each new collective. *** Pat suggests an Amendment to the LM proposal: Quoting from the new LM proposal, in the section "Summary": "[LM is] confident that their ability to collaborate and contribute to the space will manifest, whether they become a collective member now, later or never." As someone who is passionate about Inter-faith organizing and building broad based solidarity around radical values, I echo LM’s confidence that given a trial period, LM would be able to demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are NOT trying to brainwash/mind-control/emotionally-manipulate anyone. I am also confident that if other cultural mismatches were to arise, we would be able to resolve them. I am also confident that the connection to the warmth of an intergenerational, interracial, family-oriented membership that LM would catalyze would convince the skeptical that the benefits of LM's presence far outweigh the costs. I am overflowingly confident that, as suggested by Yar at the 8/26 delegates meeting, a trial period of 3 to 6 months would be more than enough time to build trust between LM and the Omni community, after which LM could be confirmed as a long term tenant and/or member-collective. Most of my friends in the activist community would agree that organizers should build affinity/trust first before jumping into a long-term partnership together, it is totally unreasonable and naive to expect otherwise. As Yar said at the 8/26 sudo meeting, "applying to be a member collective is like proposing marriage. so take us on a few dates first." text of amendment: LM will be a tenant for a trial period of (4 months? Yar proposed Oct 1st to Feb 1st) in which LM and the wider Omni community can build trust and affinity with each other. If the Omni community does not reach consensus to extend the trial period or enter into an official long-term arrangement with LM, then the trial period will terminate. ** Sigma: For new people arriving, if you are missing context, please read the notes, because the notes are great, because I'm taking them. *** Marc: Thanks for taking notes :) *** rmt_daniel: thx Sigma. I am reading them. Not saying much, but reading. Thx! :) ** Romy: Feel like everything would be awesome if she came and talked to us *** Brendan: Maybe she feels anxious because we are like "omg you are an evil church ruler lady" and if we were actively open about talking to her then it would go better * Lesley (remote): I also support 4-6 month trial.+1 ** Patrick: Maybe we should have an envoy of people who are not allergic to religion and want to meet her and talk to her *** Mary: I am in *** Brendan: I am in to envoy *** Pat: Can we get quorum to consense on Sudo requesting an amendment to the proposal that includes a trial period of 4 months? ===Vote=== Proposal: Liberation Ministries (LM) will be a tenant for a trial period of 4 months, in which LM and the wider Omni community can build trust and affinity with each other. If the Omni community does not reach consensus to extend the trial period or enter into an official long-term arrangement with LM, then the trial period will terminate. * Aye: Lesley, Yar, Pat, Francisco, Troy, Liz, Max, Mary, Anthony, Robb * Not Blocking: Sigma, Juul (but not feeling very happy about it), Matthew Stewart (Think this is a really bad idea), Jenny, rmt_daniel (I agree w M.Stewart). * Blocking: The proposal passes. ==New Omni Delegates== ===PatXu=== * Proposal: Add Patrick to be on delegates list. ** Aye: Jenny, Sigma, Jake, Mary, Lesley, Matt, Romy, Robb, Karissa ** Abstaining: Francisco ** Blocking: The proposal passes. ===Sigma=== * Proposal: Add Sigma to be on delegates list. ** Aye: Jenny, Jake, Mary, Patrick, Matt, Romy, Robb, Karissa, juul ** Abstaining: Francisco ** Blocking: The proposal passes. =Conflicts/Bans= * Dante C who reportedly spit at Niki was reminded again and issued interest in attempting to engage in conflict resolution. Has returned to Omni Commons since then many times, and has been asked to leave on several occaisions, and needs to engage in conflict resolution, but until then is not welcome in the space. =Previously= * https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Meeting_Notes_2015-09-09 * https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Meeting_Notes_2015-09-02 * https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Meeting_Notes_2015-08-26 -- Jenny Help open a people-powered common space in Oakland, California! https://omnicommons.org/donate `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories." -Laurie Anderson "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining it." -Hannah Arendt "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create." -Stéphane Mallarmé ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org https://sudoroom.org/lists/listinfo/sudo-discuss