19 Dec
2021
19 Dec
'21
10:31 a.m.
Hi, my name is David and I have been working with Lilu on repairing the
Laser at Sudo Room. I am a member at noisebridge and wanted to make clear
that while it is true that Lilu had a misunderstanding/disagreement with
two other members at noisebridge, this took place on an online chat when
she was both extremely low on sleep (i.e. perhaps not thinking totally
logically) and in mourning. It was also resolved in-person through a
follow-up conversation and successful mediation. There has never been a
"safe space" ask to leave for Lilu at noisebridge - there was simply a
disagreement/misunderstanding in an online chat that has since been
resolved.
Lilu has brought to my attention that she has been pursued and touched
inappropriately on two separate occasions by a male worker at the omni
commons who asked her "not to worry because he is divorced". After she
reported this Saturday she has become the target of harassment by a male
friend of the worker, who earlier in the same day (and together with the
worker) had tried to discount Lilu's accusation and to characterize the
interaction as "normal touch".
I think that it would be a mistake to use hearsay about a resolved
disagreement at another organization as reason to discount an allegation
about harassment/inappropriate touch and frankly what looks like an attempt
to bully her into not speaking out about it.
Thanks
19 Dec
19 Dec
12:47 p.m.
I am trying to figure out who this person is that inappropriately touched
Lovi/Lilu.
Was it Jorge or Mike or someone else ??? (two men working on
electrical/carpentry/roof)
I came across Lovi/Lilu arguing with each Chicago (ANV member) in the
context of Chicago stating that Lovi/Lilu was messing with ANV's stuff and
Chicago telling Lovi/Lilu not to both ANV and him.
The Noisebridge part you mention neglects the systemic unexcellent behavior
exhibited by Lovi/Lilu that furthers xenophobic racist behaviors and
ideologies...not just some mere interpersonal issue that was no big
deal.......
There were over 200 messages on the Nosiebridge Slack that day oriented
around Lovi/Lilu accusing a random person of being a foreign person working
as a CIA agent without any sort of proof and demanding that Noisebridge
trust Lovi/Lilu's instincts (Lovi/Lilu emphasized repeatedly the
foreignness of the person they were falsely accusing...)
This is not some simplistic interpersonal issue as you framed it. It may
have been resolved between the person who asked Lovi/Lilu to stay away from
Noisebridge until mediation occurred, which it did.
But overall please do not download Lovi/Lilu's racist xenophobic
unexcellent behavior
--
I'm guessing also, David, that you are unfamiliar with the fact that couple
of weeks ago, Lovi/Lilu harassed an older black woman who volunteers for
East Bay Food Not Bombs (Habiba) with Lovi/Lilu thinking that Habiba was
some random who was "trespassing " in Omni Commons, asking for Habiba to
identify herself to Lovi/Lilu as if Lovi is some kind of white supremacist
cop. That is embarrassing.
Fuck that shit and anyone who glosses over that.
I hope Lovi/Lilu can bring accountability to person who harassed her
but please please do not ignore or downplay Lovi/Lilu's racist
authoritarian behavior, David or anyone else.
Dane
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 12:00 david broccoli via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
Hi, my name is David and I have been working with Lilu
on repairing the
Laser at Sudo Room. I am a member at noisebridge and wanted to make clear
that while it is true that Lilu had a misunderstanding/disagreement with
two other members at noisebridge, this took place on an online chat when
she was both extremely low on sleep (i.e. perhaps not thinking totally
logically) and in mourning. It was also resolved in-person through a
follow-up conversation and successful mediation. There has never been a
"safe space" ask to leave for Lilu at noisebridge - there was simply a
disagreement/misunderstanding in an online chat that has since been
resolved.
Lilu has brought to my attention that she has been pursued and touched
inappropriately on two separate occasions by a male worker at the omni
commons who asked her "not to worry because he is divorced". After she
reported this Saturday she has become the target of harassment by a male
friend of the worker, who earlier in the same day (and together with the
worker) had tried to discount Lilu's accusation and to characterize the
interaction as "normal touch".
I think that it would be a mistake to use hearsay about a resolved
disagreement at another organization as reason to discount an allegation
about harassment/inappropriate touch and frankly what looks like an attempt
to bully her into not speaking out about it.
Thanks _______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
2:01 p.m.
Hi Dane - Lilu expressed concern in an online forum about a person who came
into the space and was photographing people without consent and asking
questions in a very direct and probing manner. This person happened to be
from the state of Israel/Palestine. My understanding is that Lilu is not
racist or xenophobic, and is not anti-state-of-israel. Furthermore, she has
expressed that some of her closest friends and also direct supporters of
her livelihood have been Jewish (both religiously and ethnically).
I respect your concern about Lilu's questioning of Habiba and why she
wanted to keep the door open. My understanding is that Habiba is a
well-established member of Sudo, so when Lilu asked if she was a volunteer
at the space and if she could close the front door, I can understand why
she would not want to answer whether she was a volunteer or not to some
blonde white girl. Still, my understanding is that Lilu did not ask her for
her identification- to do so would be outrageous. Is your understanding
that she confronted Habiba and asked to see her identification?
Thanks for your care about the space. My only reason for weighing in here
is (1) being a member at noisebridge and seeing hearsay be misrepresented
(2) to make sure that the story of my friend who was touched
inappropriately is not snuffed out by three men.
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 12:47 PM Dane <wanderingsearch1(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I am trying to figure out who this person is that
inappropriately touched
Lovi/Lilu.
Was it Jorge or Mike or someone else ??? (two men working on
electrical/carpentry/roof)
I came across Lovi/Lilu arguing with each Chicago (ANV member) in the
context of Chicago stating that Lovi/Lilu was messing with ANV's stuff and
Chicago telling Lovi/Lilu not to both ANV and him.
The Noisebridge part you mention neglects the systemic unexcellent
behavior exhibited by Lovi/Lilu that furthers xenophobic racist behaviors
and ideologies...not just some mere interpersonal issue that was no big
deal.......
There were over 200 messages on the Nosiebridge Slack that day oriented
around Lovi/Lilu accusing a random person of being a foreign person working
as a CIA agent without any sort of proof and demanding that Noisebridge
trust Lovi/Lilu's instincts (Lovi/Lilu emphasized repeatedly the
foreignness of the person they were falsely accusing...)
This is not some simplistic interpersonal issue as you framed it. It may
have been resolved between the person who asked Lovi/Lilu to stay away from
Noisebridge until mediation occurred, which it did.
But overall please do not download Lovi/Lilu's racist xenophobic
unexcellent behavior
--
I'm guessing also, David, that you are unfamiliar with the fact that
couple of weeks ago, Lovi/Lilu harassed an older black woman who volunteers
for East Bay Food Not Bombs (Habiba) with Lovi/Lilu thinking that Habiba
was some random who was "trespassing " in Omni Commons, asking for Habiba
to identify herself to Lovi/Lilu as if Lovi is some kind of white
supremacist cop. That is embarrassing.
Fuck that shit and anyone who glosses over that.
I hope Lovi/Lilu can bring accountability to person who harassed her
but please please do not ignore or downplay Lovi/Lilu's racist
authoritarian behavior, David or anyone else.
Dane
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 12:00 david broccoli via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
Hi, my name is David and I have been working with
Lilu on repairing the
Laser at Sudo Room. I am a member at noisebridge and wanted to make clear
that while it is true that Lilu had a misunderstanding/disagreement with
two other members at noisebridge, this took place on an online chat when
she was both extremely low on sleep (i.e. perhaps not thinking totally
logically) and in mourning. It was also resolved in-person through a
follow-up conversation and successful mediation. There has never been a
"safe space" ask to leave for Lilu at noisebridge - there was simply a
disagreement/misunderstanding in an online chat that has since been
resolved.
Lilu has brought to my attention that she has been pursued and touched
inappropriately on two separate occasions by a male worker at the omni
commons who asked her "not to worry because he is divorced". After she
reported this Saturday she has become the target of harassment by a male
friend of the worker, who earlier in the same day (and together with the
worker) had tried to discount Lilu's accusation and to characterize the
interaction as "normal touch".
I think that it would be a mistake to use hearsay about a resolved
disagreement at another organization as reason to discount an allegation
about harassment/inappropriate touch and frankly what looks like an attempt
to bully her into not speaking out about it.
Thanks _______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
2:50 p.m.
It seems like there’s a lot of people speaking on behalf of Lovi/Lilu, but
not Lovi/Lilu.
Lovi/Lilu - btw what is your preferred name, Lovi or Lilu?
In the absence of your input, it seems there has been growing speculation
and floating of names as the person or persons who may have harassed you on
the premises of Omni Commons.
In my view it is important that we understand who all these parties are as
best we can, what exactly occurred, where in omni, and when and that if
possible this is not remain speculative, which can lead to more harm.
I’m really concerned about this.
David
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 14:02 david broccoli via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
Hi Dane - Lilu expressed concern in an online forum
about a person who
came into the space and was photographing people without consent and asking
questions in a very direct and probing manner. This person happened to be
from the state of Israel/Palestine. My understanding is that Lilu is not
racist or xenophobic, and is not anti-state-of-israel. Furthermore, she has
expressed that some of her closest friends and also direct supporters of
her livelihood have been Jewish (both religiously and ethnically).
I respect your concern about Lilu's questioning of Habiba and why she
wanted to keep the door open. My understanding is that Habiba is a
well-established member of Sudo, so when Lilu asked if she was a volunteer
at the space and if she could close the front door, I can understand why
she would not want to answer whether she was a volunteer or not to some
blonde white girl. Still, my understanding is that Lilu did not ask her for
her identification- to do so would be outrageous. Is your understanding
that she confronted Habiba and asked to see her identification?
Thanks for your care about the space. My only reason for weighing in here
is (1) being a member at noisebridge and seeing hearsay be misrepresented
(2) to make sure that the story of my friend who was touched
inappropriately is not snuffed out by three men.
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 12:47 PM Dane <wanderingsearch1(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I am trying to figure out who this person is that
inappropriately touched
Lovi/Lilu.
Was it Jorge or Mike or someone else ??? (two men working on
electrical/carpentry/roof)
I came across Lovi/Lilu arguing with each Chicago (ANV member) in the
context of Chicago stating that Lovi/Lilu was messing with ANV's stuff and
Chicago telling Lovi/Lilu not to both ANV and him.
The Noisebridge part you mention neglects the systemic unexcellent
behavior exhibited by Lovi/Lilu that furthers xenophobic racist behaviors
and ideologies...not just some mere interpersonal issue that was no big
deal.......
There were over 200 messages on the Nosiebridge Slack that day oriented
around Lovi/Lilu accusing a random person of being a foreign person working
as a CIA agent without any sort of proof and demanding that Noisebridge
trust Lovi/Lilu's instincts (Lovi/Lilu emphasized repeatedly the
foreignness of the person they were falsely accusing...)
This is not some simplistic interpersonal issue as you framed it. It may
have been resolved between the person who asked Lovi/Lilu to stay away from
Noisebridge until mediation occurred, which it did.
But overall please do not download Lovi/Lilu's racist xenophobic
unexcellent behavior
--
I'm guessing also, David, that you are unfamiliar with the fact that
couple of weeks ago, Lovi/Lilu harassed an older black woman who volunteers
for East Bay Food Not Bombs (Habiba) with Lovi/Lilu thinking that Habiba
was some random who was "trespassing " in Omni Commons, asking for Habiba
to identify herself to Lovi/Lilu as if Lovi is some kind of white
supremacist cop. That is embarrassing.
Fuck that shit and anyone who glosses over that.
I hope Lovi/Lilu can bring accountability to person who harassed her
but please please do not ignore or downplay Lovi/Lilu's racist
authoritarian behavior, David or anyone else.
Dane
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 12:00 david broccoli via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
sudo-discuss mailing list
-- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
Hi, my name is David and I have been working with
Lilu on repairing the
Laser at Sudo Room. I am a member at noisebridge and wanted to make clear
that while it is true that Lilu had a misunderstanding/disagreement with
two other members at noisebridge, this took place on an online chat when
she was both extremely low on sleep (i.e. perhaps not thinking totally
logically) and in mourning. It was also resolved in-person through a
follow-up conversation and successful mediation. There has never been a
"safe space" ask to leave for Lilu at noisebridge - there was simply a
disagreement/misunderstanding in an online chat that has since been
resolved.
Lilu has brought to my attention that she has been pursued and touched
inappropriately on two separate occasions by a male worker at the omni
commons who asked her "not to worry because he is divorced". After she
reported this Saturday she has become the target of harassment by a male
friend of the worker, who earlier in the same day (and together with the
worker) had tried to discount Lilu's accusation and to characterize the
interaction as "normal touch".
I think that it would be a mistake to use hearsay about a resolved
disagreement at another organization as reason to discount an allegation
about harassment/inappropriate touch and frankly what looks like an attempt
to bully her into not speaking out about it.
Thanks _______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
_______________________________________________ 
4:06 p.m.
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM David Keenan via sudo-discuss
<sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
It seems like there’s a lot of people speaking on
behalf of Lovi/Lilu, but not Lovi/Lilu.
I'm in touch with her. She doesn't feel comfortable interacting on the list.
Lovi/Lilu - btw what is your preferred name, Lovi or
Lilu?
Lovi is her name. She also responds to Lilu as a "hacker name".
In the absence of your input, it seems there has been
growing speculation and floating of names as the person or persons who may have harassed
you on the premises of Omni Commons.
In my view it is important that we understand who all these parties are as best we can,
what exactly occurred, where in omni, and when and that if possible this is not remain
speculative, which can lead to more harm.
It was Jorge. He was asking her uncomfortably intimate questions and
touched her without asking on Friday. At the time, she was upset but
didn't give him any direct feedback about it. (Which is not her
responsibility IMO) Later on Friday, when four of us were working on
the roof, she told the whole group what happened and we all decided to
talk to Jorge and tell him that he's not supposed to do that. At the
time it didn't seem urgent, or like an outright ban was necessary. He
was already gone for the day and I think only you (David K) have his
contact info.
But then, on Saturday morning in the entrance hall, he apparently
snuck up behind her and poked her, then immediately put his arm around
her. She responded by yelling "don't ever fucking touch me again",
then went into Sudoroom to work on a project.
Jorge responded by trying to justify himself and explain that this
kind of touching is a valid way to socialize. Chicago apparently took
his side, and they both went up to the roof to try to convince Mike
(for some reason?) to also come to Jorge's defense. Mike said he
didn't agree and didn't want to get involved.
As I understand it, a couple hours later, Lovi tried to leave Omni,
stopping by the free store on her way out to find a shirt. She leaned
her bike against ANV's food cart, at which point Chicago accused her
of stealing things and messing with stuff. By now, both of them
perceived the other one to be harassing them, so it escalated into a
shouting match, and that's when Dane walked in and then asked Lovi to
leave. Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.
4:33 p.m.
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 12:47 PM Dane via sudo-discuss
<sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
but please please do not ignore or downplay
Lovi/Lilu's racist authoritarian behavior, David or anyone else.
Dane, I understand your concern about both of these incidents, and I
agree with not wanting to tolerate white supremacy. But my
understanding is that in both cases, Lovi apologized for her behavior
and learned from her mistake, and this was accepted in good faith by
everybody involved? If anybody feels that these are actually still
unresolved, I would support some kind of accountability process to
happen. But it doesn't seem like you're asking for that? What you're
asking for is that we simply treat these as "priors" by which to judge
her at fault for Saturday's drama, which I cannot accept, because that
would ultimately mean we are banning her in retaliation for being
assaulted and then complaining about it. Surely you can understand why
that's not okay either?
4:45 p.m.
I did not know the context until just now that Lovi had been sexually
assaulted by Jorge (why was this information not immediately shared ?)
I asked Lovi to temporarily leave since it appeared that they were
harassing Chicago in a manner similar to how they harassed Habiba.
If I do not know all the information & contextual knowledge that was not
transparent at the time and all I see is Lovi yelling at Chicago while
appearing to mess with his work, I act based upon the immediate information
& knowledge by asking for them to leave.
*I never wanted a ban but an Ask to Leave* since I came upon Lovi yelling
at Chicago when he was saying that Lovi should not be messing with
ANV's material. Now that I know* the context of Jorge harassing Lovi*, this
changes the dynamic completely.
Jorge needs to be held to accountability along with Chicago understanding
that Jorge's behavior is 100 % unacceptable.
Dane
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 4:32 PM Yardena Cohen <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 12:47 PM Dane via
sudo-discuss
<sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
but please please do not ignore or downplay
Lovi/Lilu's racist
authoritarian behavior, David or anyone else.
Dane, I understand your concern about both of these incidents, and I
agree with not wanting to tolerate white supremacy. But my
understanding is that in both cases, Lovi apologized for her behavior
and learned from her mistake, and this was accepted in good faith by
everybody involved? If anybody feels that these are actually still
unresolved, I would support some kind of accountability process to
happen. But it doesn't seem like you're asking for that? What you're
asking for is that we simply treat these as "priors" by which to judge
her at fault for Saturday's drama, which I cannot accept, because that
would ultimately mean we are banning her in retaliation for being
assaulted and then complaining about it. Surely you can understand why
that's not okay either?
20 Dec
20 Dec
12:08 p.m.
All,
Lovi: Apologies for not seeing your email to me of yesterday. I am on
vacation in a remote area w/o consistent cel coverage, and am not
thoroughly checking emails.
I am very sorry this incident occurred. I was able to communicate with
Jorge yesterday afternoon to not return to omni and have confirmed he will
not come back. Due to my limited cel coverage right now, I didn’t have the
ability to have a spoken conversation with him but I was able to text him,
and he indicated he understands not to return. I am not sure whether or not
he totally understands the full context of why he was asked to not return.
When I am back in town, I will also call him. (Yar, if possible perhaps you
could be on that call as well.)
I previously observed Jorge working for a few days at omni and nothing
indicated to me that he was prone to behavior like this. From what I had
previously observed, he kept his head down to focus on his work and did not
strike up conversations with anyone.
Moving forward I will be explicit that anyone working to help improve omni
should not come within 3’ of any community member in the space, refrain
from touching anyone under any circumstances, and to give folks my number
if community members approach them with anything more than a
straightforward question. I have already informed the folks repairing
electrical at omni of this protocol.
Separately I think it also may be prudent if community members could,
whenever reasonably possible, perhaps minimize any non-critical
interactions with contractors, unless of course there is a safety concern.
Again I am sorry this occurred, and thank you again for speaking out about
this.
Best,
David
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 16:46 Dane via sudo-discuss <
sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
I did not know the context until just now that Lovi
had been sexually
assaulted by Jorge (why was this information not immediately shared ?)
I asked Lovi to temporarily leave since it appeared that they were
harassing Chicago in a manner similar to how they harassed Habiba.
If I do not know all the information & contextual knowledge that was not
transparent at the time and all I see is Lovi yelling at Chicago while
appearing to mess with his work, I act based upon the immediate information
& knowledge by asking for them to leave.
*I never wanted a ban but an Ask to Leave* since I came upon Lovi yelling
at Chicago when he was saying that Lovi should not be messing with
ANV's material. Now that I know* the context of Jorge harassing Lovi*,
this changes the dynamic completely.
Jorge needs to be held to accountability along with Chicago understanding
that Jorge's behavior is 100 % unacceptable.
Dane
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 4:32 PM Yardena Cohen <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 12:47 PM Dane via
sudo-discuss
<sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org> wrote:
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list -- sudo-discuss(a)sudoroom.org
To unsubscribe send an email to sudo-discuss-leave(a)sudoroom.org
but please please do not ignore or downplay
Lovi/Lilu's racist
authoritarian behavior, David or anyone else.
Dane, I understand your concern about both of these incidents, and I
agree with not wanting to tolerate white supremacy. But my
understanding is that in both cases, Lovi apologized for her behavior
and learned from her mistake, and this was accepted in good faith by
everybody involved? If anybody feels that these are actually still
unresolved, I would support some kind of accountability process to
happen. But it doesn't seem like you're asking for that? What you're
asking for is that we simply treat these as "priors" by which to judge
her at fault for Saturday's drama, which I cannot accept, because that
would ultimately mean we are banning her in retaliation for being
assaulted and then complaining about it. Surely you can understand why
that's not okay either?
23 Dec
23 Dec
7:05 a.m.
Ok, so I think this is where we're at now?
* Lovi is still welcome at omni & sudo
* Jorge was told not to come back, pending some future conversation
* We need to be vigilant about rooting out anti-blackness and
xenophobia from our communities, wherever they show up
1094
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8 comments
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participants (4)
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Dane -
david broccoli -
David Keenan -
Yardena Cohen