24 Oct
2014
24 Oct
'14
6:59 p.m.
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like
I'm trying to troll the list
or criticize you in public.
Replying privately with an argument is in some ways more aggressive
than replying on the list. It can make people feel cornered, makes it
harder for them to call for backup, and can potentially enable
triangulation gaslighting. Please ask for explicit permission from
people before starting private email arguments.
But since you do - can you explain a thing I always
wonder about when I read
authoritative statements about "My Culture" -
What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics who do
not care who celebrates their holidays, or Hispanics who don't feel
particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for all
Hispanics?
Speaking from an identity position is not the same as "I speak for
everybody who shares my identity." Missing a subtle but important
distinction like that and then haranguing somebody else over it, is
the hallmark of a well-played troll. You've been warned several times
on this list for creepy racist behavior. Please end it once and for
all. Thank you.
24 Oct
24 Oct
7:35 p.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
Praveen, that's an excellent suggestion. Thank you for your nuanced and
sensitive response. Would anyone on the list who identifies as Hispanic
like to help with that?
This discussion hinges on the issue of whether there is a difference
between disrespectful cultural appropriation (e.g. Native-themed all-white
frat parties) and respectful culture-inspired artistic and social
explorations. Unlike Sonja, most of my lived experience has been in areas
with much more Hispanic influence than the Bay Area. In New Mexico, I
didn't hear anyone voice offense at whites celebrating DDM, because we were
the minority and acknowledged as part of the community--our participation
carried no threat because Hispanics were the often-dominant majority. Also,
there were so many people of mixed ancestry, white-skinned Mexicans, and
brown skinned non-Hispanic Native peoples that there was no issue of anyone
being assumed to have "no understanding" of the holiday.
Also, I have seen the issue of race-as-culture be very much used to oppress
people of color in historically white European countries where people of
color can live in the country for 3+ generations and still not be viewed
as, for example "really French."
Anyway, for now I'll revise the flyer. Just wait ten years until we get to
transhumans vs. primate-body-identified humans. That will be an interesting
discussion.
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 6:59 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss
<sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
--
Lesley Bell
432-266-0397
zvezdalune(a)gmail.com
<http://lesleybell.com>
I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like
I'm trying to troll the
list
or criticize you in public.
Replying privately with an argument is in some ways more aggressive
than replying on the list. It can make people feel cornered, makes it
harder for them to call for backup, and can potentially enable
triangulation gaslighting. Please ask for explicit permission from
people before starting private email arguments.
But since you do - can you explain a thing I
always wonder about when I
read
authoritative statements about "My
Culture" -
What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics
who do
not care who celebrates their holidays, or
Hispanics who don't feel
particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for all
Hispanics?
Speaking from an identity position is not the same as "I speak for
everybody who shares my identity." Missing a subtle but important
distinction like that and then haranguing somebody else over it, is
the hallmark of a well-played troll. You've been warned several times
on this list for creepy racist behavior. Please end it once and for
all. Thank you.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
25 Oct
25 Oct
12:01 p.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
I grew up in New Mexico too Lesley, and agree feel for what you are talking
about -- everyone was sort of equally poor and have memories of DDLM
everyone participated in growing up in school :) Things are really
different out here aren't they? :)
The reason I wrote the last email has to do more with underlying faultlines
of not just gentrification (a lot has been written about this topic in the
DDM festivities in the Mission), but in transhumanist circles itself.
While I find transhumanism to be very cool, I have encountered more than my
fair share anti-black (I can point out comments on sudo-discuss in private,
but also generally common in a lot of bay area circles) and islamophobic
racism in transhumanist communities (look no farther than richard
dawkins). Once again I /want/ transhumanism to be a multiracial and
multicultural philosophy, and it deeply saddens me that these views are
prevalent. With all the writing and talk about the lack of inclusion of
hispanic communities in Silicon Valley, it's easy to to take a view of a
transhumanist DDLM as being appropriative.
I don't have good answers for any of this stuff, but I think it's worth
having a long critical conversation about it. We are, after all, inventing
the future. We don't want to drag the horrible social legacy stuff going
forward as well do we?
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 7:35 PM, Lesley Bell <zvezdalune(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Praveen, that's an excellent suggestion. Thank
you for your nuanced and
sensitive response. Would anyone on the list who identifies as Hispanic
like to help with that?
This discussion hinges on the issue of whether there is a difference
between disrespectful cultural appropriation (e.g. Native-themed all-white
frat parties) and respectful culture-inspired artistic and social
explorations. Unlike Sonja, most of my lived experience has been in areas
with much more Hispanic influence than the Bay Area. In New Mexico, I
didn't hear anyone voice offense at whites celebrating DDM, because we were
the minority and acknowledged as part of the community--our participation
carried no threat because Hispanics were the often-dominant majority. Also,
there were so many people of mixed ancestry, white-skinned Mexicans, and
brown skinned non-Hispanic Native peoples that there was no issue of anyone
being assumed to have "no understanding" of the holiday.
Also, I have seen the issue of race-as-culture be very much used to
oppress people of color in historically white European countries where
people of color can live in the country for 3+ generations and still not be
viewed as, for example "really French."
Anyway, for now I'll revise the flyer. Just wait ten years until we get to
transhumans vs. primate-body-identified humans. That will be an interesting
discussion.
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 6:59 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss
<sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
--
Lesley Bell
432-266-0397
zvezdalune(a)gmail.com
<http://lesleybell.com>
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like
I'm trying to troll the
list
or criticize you in public.
Replying privately with an argument is in some ways more aggressive
than replying on the list. It can make people feel cornered, makes it
harder for them to call for backup, and can potentially enable
triangulation gaslighting. Please ask for explicit permission from
people before starting private email arguments.
But since you do - can you explain a thing I
always wonder about when I
read
authoritative statements about "My
Culture" -
What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics
who do
not care who celebrates their holidays, or
Hispanics who don't feel
particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for
all
Hispanics?
Speaking from an identity position is not the same as "I speak for
everybody who shares my identity." Missing a subtle but important
distinction like that and then haranguing somebody else over it, is
the hallmark of a well-played troll. You've been warned several times
on this list for creepy racist behavior. Please end it once and for
all. Thank you.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
28 Oct
28 Oct
11:01 a.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
Praveen, I have observed similar things. I have hopes, but no answers.
Extropy? This study <http://hub.jhu.edu/2014/06/30/ethical-behavior-tired>
concluded that people made less ethical decisions when tired. If I believe
what people tell me, very few people actually want to
discriminate--discrimination is just a result of cognitive biases that
we've developed to compensate for our limited processing power. If some
humans had augmented mental resources, would it be easier to correct biased
thinking?
I would like to think that humanity will soon evolve past this kind of
thing, but if we don't, our impending potential self-directed species
differentiation could result a wee bit of conflict. And...that's one reason
I would like to bring the transhumanist/futurist community closer to the
Omni community.
Here's the updated flyer.
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I grew up in New Mexico too Lesley, and agree feel for
what you are
talking about -- everyone was sort of equally poor and have memories of
DDLM everyone participated in growing up in school :) Things are really
different out here aren't they? :)
The reason I wrote the last email has to do more with underlying
faultlines of not just gentrification (a lot has been written about this
topic in the DDM festivities in the Mission), but in transhumanist circles
itself. While I find transhumanism to be very cool, I have encountered
more than my fair share anti-black (I can point out comments on
sudo-discuss in private, but also generally common in a lot of bay area
circles) and islamophobic racism in transhumanist communities (look no
farther than richard dawkins). Once again I /want/ transhumanism to be a
multiracial and multicultural philosophy, and it deeply saddens me that
these views are prevalent. With all the writing and talk about the lack of
inclusion of hispanic communities in Silicon Valley, it's easy to to take a
view of a transhumanist DDLM as being appropriative.
I don't have good answers for any of this stuff, but I think it's worth
having a long critical conversation about it. We are, after all, inventing
the future. We don't want to drag the horrible social legacy stuff going
forward as well do we?
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 7:35 PM, Lesley Bell <zvezdalune(a)gmail.com> wrote:
--
Lesley Bell
432-266-0397
zvezdalune(a)gmail.com
<http://lesleybell.com>
Praveen, that's an excellent suggestion.
Thank you for your nuanced and
sensitive response. Would anyone on the list who identifies as Hispanic
like to help with that?
This discussion hinges on the issue of whether there is a difference
between disrespectful cultural appropriation (e.g. Native-themed all-white
frat parties) and respectful culture-inspired artistic and social
explorations. Unlike Sonja, most of my lived experience has been in areas
with much more Hispanic influence than the Bay Area. In New Mexico, I
didn't hear anyone voice offense at whites celebrating DDM, because we were
the minority and acknowledged as part of the community--our participation
carried no threat because Hispanics were the often-dominant majority. Also,
there were so many people of mixed ancestry, white-skinned Mexicans, and
brown skinned non-Hispanic Native peoples that there was no issue of anyone
being assumed to have "no understanding" of the holiday.
Also, I have seen the issue of race-as-culture be very much used to
oppress people of color in historically white European countries where
people of color can live in the country for 3+ generations and still not be
viewed as, for example "really French."
Anyway, for now I'll revise the flyer. Just wait ten years until we get
to transhumans vs. primate-body-identified humans. That will be an
interesting discussion.
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 6:59 PM, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss
<sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
--
Lesley Bell
432-266-0397
zvezdalune(a)gmail.com
<http://lesleybell.com>
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like
I'm trying to troll the
list
or criticize you in public.
Replying privately with an argument is in some ways more aggressive
than replying on the list. It can make people feel cornered, makes it
harder for them to call for backup, and can potentially enable
triangulation gaslighting. Please ask for explicit permission from
people before starting private email arguments.
But since you do - can you explain a thing I
always wonder about when
I read
authoritative statements about "My
Culture" -
What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics
who do
not care who celebrates their holidays, or
Hispanics who don't feel
particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for
all
Hispanics?
Speaking from an identity position is not the same as "I speak for
everybody who shares my identity." Missing a subtle but important
distinction like that and then haranguing somebody else over it, is
the hallmark of a well-played troll. You've been warned several times
on this list for creepy racist behavior. Please end it once and for
all. Thank you.
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
24 Oct
24 Oct
10:14 p.m.
New subject: Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?
I remember this convo from college and i don't remember how it was resolved
then -
The justification for speaking from an identity position is that it gives
some authority on the subject being discussed, right? Or is it something
else?
If the argument is, 'I am Hispanic, so I have some expertise on this
issue,' then other Hispanics also have expertise on this issue. The
question, now put less bluntly, remains.
The question was, what is the difference between speaking from an identity
position and speaking for people who share your identity? It IS a subtle
distinction - so what is the distinction? If you're not trying to imply
something about the people that share your identity, then what is the
relevance of your identity?
I really don't think it's trolling to ask this, because I read lots of
places, not just here, this kind of argument. It looks like an argument
from authority, which is not really an argument.
Not to mention a lot of well meaning people miss the distinction, if any. I
had a guy say to me "I can't imagine what it's like to live in fear of
being raped every day." I was like 'fuck off, me either.' But he didn't
make that up, some other lady told him that was the lived experience of
womanhood, he just believed it.
Anyway happy Friday. I hope your party is fun.
On Friday, October 24, 2014, yar <yardenack(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss
<sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com
<javascript:;>> wrote:
I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like
I'm trying to troll the
list
or criticize you in public.
Replying privately with an argument is in some ways more aggressive
than replying on the list. It can make people feel cornered, makes it
harder for them to call for backup, and can potentially enable
triangulation gaslighting. Please ask for explicit permission from
people before starting private email arguments.
But since you do - can you explain a thing I
always wonder about when I
read
authoritative statements about "My
Culture" -
What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics
who do
not care who celebrates their holidays, or
Hispanics who don't feel
particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for all
Hispanics?
Speaking from an identity position is not the same as "I speak for
everybody who shares my identity." Missing a subtle but important
distinction like that and then haranguing somebody else over it, is
the hallmark of a well-played troll. You've been warned several times
on this list for creepy racist behavior. Please end it once and for
all. Thank you.
3477
days inactive
3480
days old
4 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Lesley Bell -
Praveen Sinha -
Sonja Trauss -
yar