I respect that Matt! It's always best to solve problems without money. I think it would be wonderfully ironic if people were hacking in python and not getting paid, which fetches far more on the market of an hourly wage than cleaning does. - We are all wonderful, lovable people. But we are better at starting projects, writing, cooking food, buying beer, and so on than picking up after ourselves. I just don't think it's terribly realistic to think that a hackerspace will have people who rock at cleaning. - Maybe tonight can prove me wrong! =D In an ideal world, people who clean would get an honorable wage. It is dirty work, it's rough. On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mattsenate(a)gmail.com < mattsenate(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss

It would be interesting if the organizers of events could find a cooperative way to make cleaning fun for each individual guest... Make a game of "who'll pick up beer bottles?" Re: janitors My uncle recently retired as a janitor at a Florida school. He was debt free and able to return to his home country with a great pension. He bought and paid for a house car and saved despite coming from a crime ridden poor third world country Lets hear it for janitors they do great work --- Romy Ilano Founder of Snowyla http://www.snowyla.com romy(a)snowyla.com On May 5, 2013, at 10:08, &quot;mattsenate(a)gmail.com&quot; &lt;mattsenate(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Cleaning is life. But even if each of us tried our best to clean up after ourselves, there will be aggregated filth, incrementally built, plus the cost of natural shuffling, displacement--such is the burden of use and optimization! I think we should: Communicate more clearly the necessary standards for common space. Provide all event holders with a checklist for set up and break down Clean up after ourselves and each other collaboratively Recognize that some additional amount of cleaning is required and therefore create good systems for cleaning natural, aggregate mess.* * my personal politics hope we can do this specific type of work without direct financial incentive. // Matt ----- Reply message ----- From: "Gregg Horton" &lt;greggahorton(a)gmail.com&gt; To: "Romy Ilano" &lt;romy(a)snowyla.com&gt; Cc: "sudo-discuss" &lt;sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org&gt; Subject: [sudo-discuss] should we hire someone to clean up after events? Date: Sun, May 5, 2013 9:48 AM I think we should hire a fellow sudoer and use the cash as incentive. Whoever wishes to do it that month can. Or people can learn how to pick up after themselves. On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Romy Ilano &lt;romy(a)snowyla.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss

Romy & Yo's- And let's hear it for the times when janitors and trades-workers of all kinds were able to earn dignified family-sustaining wages doing the work that really needs to be done. Contrast to the ponzi-scheme economy where selling fraudulent mortgages produces obscene fortunes while cannibalizing what's left of the middle class. Solidarity among working people is what made the difference in the 20th century, and it can work again in the 21st century. Re. cleaning: Professional cleaning crews work efficiently because they have the right tools and the right methods, and very often they work as teams. We can do this. At minimum we should have: a) A broom and long-handled dustpan set. The best ones for dealing with large spaces, are the Rubbermaid long-handled dustpans that are open in the front, and come with brooms of compatible size. These tools make it easy to sweep up spot messes on the ground, including dropped items, crumbs, etc.: and it's the spot messes of this kind that often make the difference between an area looking clean and looking messy. b) A duster on a long enough handle to enable getting at areas above head height, such as door frames and shelves. Accumulated dust is an allergen and it also makes a place look neglected. The point of dusting is to get the dust off the surfaces, so it settles on the ground and can be vacuumed later. c) A trigger-spray bottle of Windex or equivalent, and a supply of cleaning rags that can be laundered. These aren't primarily for windows but for cleaning & wiping tables, equipment, and other surfaces that are closer to the ground and subject to grime, spills, and so on. Those of us who are inclined toward chemistry can experiment with creating our own version of Windex: basically it's dilute ammonia with a little bit of detergent. (Never mix ammonia and bleach: poison gas!) d) A trash container that's easy to tote around the space and fill up with whatever dropped objects, swept-up stuff, and so on. It can be used as a collecting container: the load can be sorted into recyclables and trash when it's transferred to the main bins. The point of this is to save oneself the effort of having to walk back and forth to the main bins with every handful of "stuff." Best of all are 5-gallon pails, which can be found "used" and scrubbed out, or bought cheaply at hardware stores. You can carry two around at once: one for trash and one for recycling, saving some sorting later. e) An upright vacuum with a hose attachment. We already have one. With frequent spot-sweeping by hand (broom & long-handled dustpan), vacuuming only needs to be done occasionally, once a week or every other week. The most efficient way to vacuum is with a helper who can help move furniture before you get to that part of the room, so the vacuuming can go on without interruptions or need to maneuver around objects. Re. methods: Aside from "patrol" cleaning such as sweeping up spills or picking up occasional bottles: Start by picking up large objects and work your way toward the crumbs. After picking up & sweeping up, start from above head-level and work your way to floor level. Vacuuming comes second-to-last, and cleaning surfaces with Windex & rags comes last of all. Liquid spills are best cleaned up as soon as they occur (the supply of cleaning rags should be accessible for this), so they don't become dried-on or sticky and hard to remove later. Left-behind piles of food & drink containers on tables mean there's a need for small convenient refuse containers (5-gallon pails work for this also) near the places where the messes accumulate. Vacuuming makes noise that some people find distracting, and involves moving furniture, so it should be done at the beginning or end of the day. We have a Roomba: a little carpet-cleaning robot with brushes and vacuum. This is in serious need of being cleaned and reconditioned, with new brushes, filters, and battery pack. But once it's in working order it can be turned loose on the big room every other night, and will relieve the need for vacuuming more than once a month or so. Everyone has their own personal list of clever cleaning tricks, and we can start compiling these for reference, on a wiki page. Cleaning can become like inertia: at first it looks like a big task that takes much effort to get moving, but after it's going along routinely, it takes relatively little effort to keep it up. -G. ====== On 13-05-05-Sun 10:25 AM, Romy Ilano wrote: It would be interesting if the organizers of events could find a cooperative way to make cleaning fun for each individual guest... Make a game of "who'll pick up beer bottles?" Re: janitors My uncle recently retired as a janitor at a Florida school. He was debt free and able to return to his home country with a great pension. He bought and paid for a house car and saved despite coming from a crime ridden poor third world country Lets hear it for janitors they do great work --- Romy Ilano Founder of Snowyla http://www.snowyla.com romy(a)snowyla.com On May 5, 2013, at 10:08, &quot;mattsenate(a)gmail.com&quot; &lt;mattsenate(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Cleaning is life. But even if each of us tried our best to clean up after ourselves, there will be aggregated filth, incrementally built, plus the cost of natural shuffling, displacement--such is the burden of use and optimization! I think we should: Communicate more clearly the necessary standards for common space. Provide all event holders with a checklist for set up and break down Clean up after ourselves and each other collaboratively Recognize that some additional amount of cleaning is required and therefore create good systems for cleaning natural, aggregate mess.* * my personal politics hope we can do this specific type of work without direct financial incentive. // Matt ----- Reply message ----- From: "Gregg Horton" &lt;greggahorton(a)gmail.com&gt; To: "Romy Ilano" &lt;romy(a)snowyla.com&gt; Cc: "sudo-discuss" &lt;sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org&gt; Subject: [sudo-discuss] should we hire someone to clean up after events? Date: Sun, May 5, 2013 9:48 AM I think we should hire a fellow sudoer and use the cash as incentive. Whoever wishes to do it that month can. Or people can learn how to pick up after themselves. On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Romy Ilano &lt;romy(a)snowyla.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing listsudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.orghttp://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss