Hi Patrick and sudoers, I’m wondering if anyone knows where to get cheapish used lab equipment and furniture like would be used in a bio lab? Or some that could be borrowed for a weekend? I may need to get hold of these things for an art installation. I’d much appreciate any leads you could throw my way. I’d also love to run some ideas by some biologists and get your thoughts, so I plan to stop by CCL sometime really soon. Tracy On Sep 5, 2014, at 2:38 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hi all, I would also like to bring up the topic of upgrading the electrical on the CCL side of the hall as well. It sounds like we may need to do all the electrical permitting (and/or inspection?) at the same time anyway. So if someone can give us a hand getting our upgrade plans in order, that would be greatly appreciated! At the very minimum we need to make sure that the Sudo upgrades don't get delayed by the slower pace of upgrades on the CCL side. I'd love to help out with some of the hands-on work in Sudo as well, if you can use some more relatively unskilled labor - we'll need to learn those skills for the CCL side anyway. CCL hasn't been pushing ahead on electrical upgrades as quickly as Sudo, since we have other construction work that needs to be done before we can start plugging in a lot of our equipment. We still need to do a thorough inventory of how much power we need where, but at a minimum, we will have 3 or 4 fridge/freezers running continuously, one oven (autoclave), plus two or more microwaves and lots of other pieces of equipment that only need intermittent power. We would like to install outlets all along the walls, and a couple additional outlets (and maybe light fixtures) in the storage rooms. And like in Sudo, the suggestion of dropping power cords down from one of the rafters has come up as well... The CCL side of the hall is on a couple of different circuits from Sudo. The black wall with all the fridges goes to a single 15A breaker in the subpanel on our side of the stage, which is obviously not enough for all of the equipment that is currently located along that wall. The two storage rooms seem to be fed directly from the main panel in the utility room. And the lights in the storage rooms may or may not go to an upstairs panel that we don't currently have access to - needs some more investigation (does anyone have a circuit breaker tracer we could borrow?) Anyone willing to give us a hand? Thanks! Patrik On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 1:49 PM, Whitney Lawrence <whitneyel3(a)gmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss

In the past I have seen some lab-like benches, furniture, and cabinetry at Urban Ore. It was a while ago and no idea what they might have now. -steve On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 3:15 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd(a)gmail.com> wrote: -- -steve

Worth checking, but I wouldn't expect too much from Urban Ore. Might get lucky though... We're hoping to buy a bunch of lab benches fro CCL, so if anyone sees any, let us know! These guys in Sunnyvale seem to have tons of lab benches, but I haven't had a chance to drop by there yet so I don't know what their prices look like: www.btexpressliquidatorsinc.com Patrik On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Steve Berl <steveberl(a)gmail.com> wrote: In the past I have seen some lab-like benches, furniture, and cabinetry at Urban Ore. It was a while ago and no idea what they might have now. -steve On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 3:15 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hi Tracy, We may potentially be able to lend you some equipment, if it's just for a temporary exhibit. I've cc'd Matt Harbowy, who currently owns much of our equipment. Feel free to stop by CCL on Tuesday evening, which is when we have our working meetings. Patrik PS: We were just discussing the other day whether we should restart doing some experiments with ferrofluid! On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Tracy Jacobs <kinetical(a)comcast.net> wrote: Hi Patrick and sudoers, I’m wondering if anyone knows where to get cheapish used lab equipment and furniture like would be used in a bio lab? Or some that could be borrowed for a weekend? I may need to get hold of these things for an art installation. I’d much appreciate any leads you could throw my way. I’d also love to run some ideas by some biologists and get your thoughts, so I plan to stop by CCL sometime really soon. Tracy On Sep 5, 2014, at 2:38 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd(a)gmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss -- -steve

Hi Patrick and sudoers, I’m wondering if anyone knows where to get cheapish used lab equipment and furniture like would be used in a bio lab? Or some that could be borrowed for a weekend? I may need to get hold of these things for an art installation. I’d much appreciate any leads you could throw my way. I’d also love to run some ideas by some biologists and get your thoughts, so I plan to stop by CCL sometime really soon. Tracy On Sep 5, 2014, at 2:38 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hi all, I would also like to bring up the topic of upgrading the electrical on the CCL side of the hall as well. It sounds like we may need to do all the electrical permitting (and/or inspection?) at the same time anyway. So if someone can give us a hand getting our upgrade plans in order, that would be greatly appreciated! At the very minimum we need to make sure that the Sudo upgrades don't get delayed by the slower pace of upgrades on the CCL side. I'd love to help out with some of the hands-on work in Sudo as well, if you can use some more relatively unskilled labor - we'll need to learn those skills for the CCL side anyway. CCL hasn't been pushing ahead on electrical upgrades as quickly as Sudo, since we have other construction work that needs to be done before we can start plugging in a lot of our equipment. We still need to do a thorough inventory of how much power we need where, but at a minimum, we will have 3 or 4 fridge/freezers running continuously, one oven (autoclave), plus two or more microwaves and lots of other pieces of equipment that only need intermittent power. We would like to install outlets all along the walls, and a couple additional outlets (and maybe light fixtures) in the storage rooms. And like in Sudo, the suggestion of dropping power cords down from one of the rafters has come up as well... The CCL side of the hall is on a couple of different circuits from Sudo. The black wall with all the fridges goes to a single 15A breaker in the subpanel on our side of the stage, which is obviously not enough for all of the equipment that is currently located along that wall. The two storage rooms seem to be fed directly from the main panel in the utility room. And the lights in the storage rooms may or may not go to an upstairs panel that we don't currently have access to - needs some more investigation (does anyone have a circuit breaker tracer we could borrow?) Anyone willing to give us a hand? Thanks! Patrik On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 1:49 PM, Whitney Lawrence <whitneyel3(a)gmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss

I believe the electrical panel in the balcony only supplies one or two things (not including the robot, which is a temporary connection) I think we should look into simply moving that breaker box down ten feet so it faces the server room, and be done with it. On Fri, 5 Sep 2014, Whitney Lawrence wrote: Howdy,Let me begin with thanking you for looking at the proposal. Your > interpretation of the plans is > > correct.{ Main -> above stage panel -> balcony panel } is how the > proposed plan is drawn. There is enough room > in the balcony panel (which is the one located in the small room that > shares a wall with the server loft of > sudoroom) to accomplish phase 1 of the proposal. The proposal is based on > instruction received to minimize > cost. Ideally, there would be a main panel breaker that supplies a sub > panel for all of sudo's needs (phase 1 > and phase 2). I can't accurately guess at a cost number for this type of > installation. Figure a 100amp sub > with hundreds of feet of 2awg plus breaker box plus breakers plus conduit > plus hardware. All depending on if > the main service can even handle the additional power demands (hiring an > electrician to run the calcs). > Ballpark $3-5k maybe- but its really a shot in the dark? > My experience with this type of thing is there is always a better way to > do it, if you go the money. > > A middle road is to plan on having the future sudo-sub panel placed near > the balcony panel. Build in an extra > 5ft or so of wire for the future transition into the new sudo-sub panel. > All that would be needed is to remove > the breakers from the old box re-run wire from J-box 1 to the new > sudo-sub, as well as re-routing the 240V > lines from the above stage panel to the sudo-sub (and of course preform > all the main -> suod-sub work). > > as far as existing vs proposed. only the sub panels mentioned above exist > currently- I'll make a note to call > out the existing stuff in the drawings. > > Thanks, > Whit > > > On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Cere Mona Davis <ceremona(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > Hi everyone. It's the first time I have looked at these plans and > I have some questions and > thoughts. Dave said he won't be able to respond to this email > until a couple of days as he is out > in the boonies somewhere. So I am writing in to expedite some > issues that I think he will likely > bring up in the days ahead. > Whit, thanks for drawing up these plans! For someone who is not > intimately familiar with our electrical > layout the plans might need a more clear description of existing > electrical vs. proposed new electrical, > however. > > In multiple conversations with Dave (and one on-site visit) he has > mentioned repeatedly that we will > want to shoot for putting in another sub panel for the sudoroom off of > the main panel as the end-game; > rather than daisy-chaining off of an existing panel (the balcony) as what > seems to be proposed here. > If we can't immediately put in a sub panel into the room, due to cost, we > should at-least be planning > for conduit and wiring paths, etc that allows for a sudoroom sub-panel in > the future. > > Thoughts? > -Cere > > > > On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 10:23 AM, <hol(a)gaskill.com> wrote: > > Thanks Yar! Whit can you liaise w/ Dave RE how much of the work is > going to be done under > the first permit? > > > > Cheers, > > Hol > > > > > > On 2014-09-04 23:16, yar wrote: > > Hi all, Dave Pedroli is a certified electrician who's offered to > review our plans to give them an okay. I'm copying him and the people > who've been most involved with electrical work. > > Dave, the latest plans are attached, and also available online[1]. > Could you please look them over and write us a few formal-sounding > sentences that boil down to "hello I am a real electrician and I say > these plans are solid"? This will help us make the landlord happy so > he will let us do them. Thank you!! > > [1] https://lists.sudoroom.org/pipermail/sudo-discuss/2014- > August/007369.html > > > > > -- > Best Regards, > Cere Davis > ceremona(a)gmail.com > ------------------- > GPG Key: http://taffy.findpage.com/~cere/pubkey.asc > GPG fingerprint (ID# 73FCA9E6) : F5C7 627B ECBE C735 117B 2278 9A95 4C88 > 73FC A9E6 > > > >

Hi Whit, that sub-panel is supplied by a double-breaker in the main breaker-box in the bar ice room. We can switch it off and lock it out while we work on it. I am saying there is literally nothing powered by that sub-panel besides maybe the light in that upstairs room that looks like a bedroom and has a ceiling fan. There is nobody to consult or ask permission, we can just do it. There are federal-pacific breakers in other boxes in the building (aka fire hazards, they are crappy breakers that should have been recalled) but this is not one of them. This is an ordinary, modern breaker box, in slightly the wrong place. I am assuming that the wiring to supply that box would reach equally well if it were moved downward, but that may not be the case. If it is not, and it would be annoying to move that box, we can just leave it there and go on with phase one. It's fine where it is. -jake On Fri, 5 Sep 2014, Whitney Lawrence wrote: > Jake,I like the way you think. I can say I'm not looking forward to coordinating with whomever/whatever is being supplied from that sub-panel, and getting into a territorial dispute along the lines of "but we're planning on using that". I'm OK with commandeering the panel. Also I'd prefer not to have to move the box. Do you think its critical that the sub panel be relocated to face into sudo? If so- so be it. Finally, I'm not sure the utilization of the existing panel addresses the inspection concern of "those panels are fire hazards" because I'm not familiar with the model details/differences. Whit On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Jake <jake(a)spaz.org> wrote: I believe the electrical panel in the balcony only supplies one or two things (not including the robot, which is a temporary connection) I think we should look into simply moving that breaker box down ten feet so it faces the server room, and be done with it. On Fri, 5 Sep 2014, Whitney Lawrence wrote: Howdy,Let me begin with

_______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss [3]

Hi all, Going over your emails and PDFs it looks good however putting more than a couple outlets on a breaker will end up being problematic. Yes refrigerators are smaller loads but there will be a time when someone opens all one after the other and they try to start all at once blowing a breaker and defrosting... Autoclaves typically need their own circuit etc ... 13 outlets with 4 breakers is pushing it. If the majority of use was to be laptops and soldering irons ok but the minute a heat gun is plugged in poof, you blow a breaker. With electricity and parachutes it's best to start out right rather than build up to it. I'll go over the PDFs on my iPad later and let you know what I think. The layout looks fine, the number of outlets looks good it's just the the number of circuits (breakets) that needs improving. Dave Somewhere on the bonneville salt flats Sent from the surveillance van

Fine by me. Just my opinion that loads add up. Indeed we use more things with small loads than ever before... I have worked on houses that get by on two fifteen amp circuits in San Francisco and I have had problems with two hundred amps 220 volts not being enough... Dave Sent from the surveillance van On Sep 6, 2014, at 5:31 PM, Jake <jake(a)spaz.org> wrote: I disagree. We have very few things that use more than 100 watts, and the number is diminishing constantly. a laptop takes no more than 100 watts max, typically around 50. 60 watt lightbulbs are occasionally used, but more often we use 24 watt CFLs, when we're not simply using the overhead lights. Desktop computers with their monitors take a total of less than 200. 3d printers take between 50 and 100 watts depending on how much heating is needed. A heat gun can take 1500 watts, but a 20-amp breaker can supply over 2400 watts. Without a more detailed list of what people expect to plug in, we can't be sure one way or another whether there will be conflicts requiring something to be plugged into a different outlet. But my experience tells me that what we have sketched out so far is more than enough. and we know for a fact that increasing service will correspondingly increase costs and time to completion, and complexity if we run

On 9/7/14 10:12 AM, hol(a)gaskill.com wrote: we've been thinking the desk/laptop load would be split between two big power strips with one attached to the back wall and one running from 3d printing area, so on 2x20A runs. so far we haven't tripped a breaker that i know of (have we?) and that's with the existing tentacle-suspension bridge infrastructure. from what i understand, there were already $400 dollars allocated for 'phase i' which has been circulating for a few weeks now, and whit already paid out of pocket for the materials to match the budget, and as far as i know has not been reimbursed :(. with the servers getting their own dedicated runs, the risks associated with a breaker popping in the event of an extreme load are pretty low. my inclination would be that unless someone shows quantitative analysis of planned loads exceeding planned capacity (thank you judy for crunching some loads!) then we can move forward with the plan that's been refined over the last month. I do not know about any limitations like de-rating breaker positions below their rated capacity so there could be something we're missing. cheers On 2014-09-07 08:54, J Clark wrote to hol: Hol, Just curious. If you have, say, 25 Sudoers each with a laptop/3d printer/other power thing plugged in at the same time to, say, a several extension cord plugs -- guessing average 75 watts each? (between Apple's 60W and 80W, guessing more would be the older), that's 1875 Watts at once, at 110 V that's 17 amps. (I think that's right.) This is reasonable for a 20A circuit? (Seems so, just curious to know if there are other bits to consider.) Thanks judi On Sep 7, 2014, at 8:27 AM, hol(a)gaskill.com wrote: i do think since CCL will be pulling from a different panel that we should have enough amps from 4x20 amp breaker positions. the balcony is set to get its own 2 runs (with one 20A plug on each run) for the server farm and any amplifiers set to run there, the 3d printing area and museum have a breaker run, and the tool area will have its own breaker. the only complication in my mind is the back set of outlets sharing a breaker with the tools and someone bearing down with a chop saw just before someone hits save on the new greatest cryptographic algorithm on their laptop. that's what pushes it to 5 positions in my mind if it were easy to get that 5th run energized. we do intend to run a separate 230V service later for the heavy stuff over 2 outlets, so maybe we could identify a spot for a breaker to be installed under stage 2. cheers On 2014-09-07 07:04, Dave Pedroli wrote: Fine by me. Just my opinion that loads add up. Indeed we use more things with small loads than ever before... I have worked on houses that get by on two fifteen amp circuits in San Francisco and I have had problems with two hundred amps 220 volts not being enough... Dave Sent from the surveillance van On Sep 6, 2014, at 5:31 PM, Jake &lt;jake(a)spaz.org&gt; wrote: I disagree. We have very few things that use more than 100 watts, and the number is diminishing constantly. a laptop takes no more than 100 watts max, typically around 50. 60 watt lightbulbs are occasionally used, but more often we use 24 watt CFLs, when we're not simply using the overhead lights. Desktop computers with their monitors take a total of less than 200. 3d printers take between 50 and 100 watts depending on how much heating is needed. A heat gun can take 1500 watts, but a 20-amp breaker can supply over 2400 watts. Without a more detailed list of what people expect to plug in, we can't be sure one way or another whether there will be conflicts requiring something to be plugged into a different outlet. But my experience tells me that what we have sketched out so far is more than enough. and we know for a fact that increasing service will correspondingly increase costs and time to completion, and complexity if we run out of circuit breakers overestimating our needs. Worst case is that you have to plug the second autoclave into a different outlet than the first one. -jake On Sat, 6 Sep 2014, Dave Pedroli wrote: Hi all, Going over your emails and PDFs it looks good however putting more than a couple outlets on a breaker will end up being problematic. Yes refrigerators are smaller loads but there will be a time when someone opens all one after the other and they try to start all at once blowing a breaker and defrosting... Autoclaves typically need their own circuit etc ... 13 outlets with 4 breakers is pushing it. If the majority of use was to be laptops and soldering irons ok but the minute a heat gun is plugged in poof, you blow a breaker. With electricity and parachutes it's best to start out right rather than build up to it. I'll go over the PDFs on my iPad later and let you know what I think. The layout looks fine, the number of outlets looks good it's just the the number of circuits (breakets) that needs improving. Dave Somewhere on the bonneville salt flats Sent from the surveillance van On Sep 5, 2014, at 3:58 PM, Jake &lt;jake(a)spaz.org&gt; wrote: I believe the electrical panel in the balcony only supplies one or two things (not including the robot, which is a temporary connection) I think we should look into simply moving that breaker box down ten feet so it faces the server room, and be done with it. On Fri, 5 Sep 2014, Whitney Lawrence wrote: Howdy,Let me begin with thanking you for looking at the proposal. Your interpretation of the plans is correct.{ Main -> above stage panel -> balcony panel } is how the proposed plan is drawn. There is enough room in the balcony panel (which is the one located in the small room that shares a wall with the server loft of sudoroom) to accomplish phase 1 of the proposal. The proposal is based on instruction received to minimize cost. Ideally, there would be a main panel breaker that supplies a sub panel for all of sudo's needs (phase 1 and phase 2). I can't accurately guess at a cost number for this type of installation. Figure a 100amp sub with hundreds of feet of 2awg plus breaker box plus breakers plus conduit plus hardware. All depending on if the main service can even handle the additional power demands (hiring an electrician to run the calcs). Ballpark $3-5k maybe- but its really a shot in the dark? My experience with this type of thing is there is always a better way to do it, if you go the money. A middle road is to plan on having the future sudo-sub panel placed near the balcony panel. Build in an extra 5ft or so of wire for the future transition into the new sudo-sub panel. All that would be needed is to remove the breakers from the old box re-run wire from J-box 1 to the new sudo-sub, as well as re-routing the 240V lines from the above stage panel to the sudo-sub (and of course preform all the main -> suod-sub work). as far as existing vs proposed. only the sub panels mentioned above exist currently- I'll make a note to call out the existing stuff in the drawings. Thanks, Whit On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Cere Mona Davis &lt;ceremona(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Hi everyone. It's the first time I have looked at these plans and I have some questions and thoughts. Dave said he won't be able to respond to this email until a couple of days as he is out in the boonies somewhere. So I am writing in to expedite some issues that I think he will likely bring up in the days ahead. Whit, thanks for drawing up these plans! For someone who is not intimately familiar with our electrical layout the plans might need a more clear description of existing electrical vs. proposed new electrical, however. In multiple conversations with Dave (and one on-site visit) he has mentioned repeatedly that we will want to shoot for putting in another sub panel for the sudoroom off of the main panel as the end-game; rather than daisy-chaining off of an existing panel (the balcony) as what seems to be proposed here. If we can't immediately put in a sub panel into the room, due to cost, we should at-least be planning for conduit and wiring paths, etc that allows for a sudoroom sub-panel in the future. Thoughts? -Cere On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 10:23 AM, &lt;hol(a)gaskill.com&gt; wrote: Thanks Yar! Whit can you liaise w/ Dave RE how much of the work is going to be done under the first permit? Cheers, Hol On 2014-09-04 23:16, yar wrote: Hi all, Dave Pedroli is a certified electrician who's offered to review our plans to give them an okay. I'm copying him and the people who've been most involved with electrical work. Dave, the latest plans are attached, and also available online[1 <https://lists.sudoroom.org/pipermail/sudo-discuss/2014-August/007369.html>]. Could you please look them over and write us a few formal-sounding sentences that boil down to "hello I am a real electrician and I say these plans are solid"? This will help us make the landlord happy so he will let us do them. Thank you!! [1] https://lists.sudoroom.org/pipermail/sudo-discuss/2014-August/007369.html -- Best Regards, Cere Davis ceremona(a)gmail.com ------------------- GPG Key: http://taffy.findpage.com/~cere/pubkey.asc GPG fingerprint (ID# 73FCA9E6) : F5C7 627B ECBE C735 117B 2278 9A95 4C88 73FC A9E6 _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing listsudo-discuss@lists.sudoroom.orghttps://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss -- *San Leandro Coworking* 400 Estudillo Ave., #204 San Leandro, CA 94577 +1-510-398-4000 http://sl-co.com

Hi Dave, Sorry for adding to the confusion. The fridges, freezers and autoclave I talked about are for Counter Culture Labs (CCL), on the other side of the hall from Sudo Room. The diagrams you've seen are for Sudo Room - we haven't come up with a wiring diagram for CCL yet (and we could use some help with that!) Other than the robot arm, Sudo will likely use quite a bit less power than CCL.  Patrik On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Dave Pedroli &lt;davepedroli(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Hi all, Going over your emails and PDFs it looks good however putting more than a couple outlets on a breaker will end up being problematic.  Yes refrigerators are smaller loads but there will be a time when someone opens all one after the other and they try to start all at once blowing a breaker and defrosting... Autoclaves typically need their own circuit etc ...  13 outlets with 4 breakers is pushing it. If the majority of use was to be laptops and soldering irons ok but the minute a heat gun is plugged in poof, you blow a breaker. With electricity and parachutes it's best to start out right rather than build up to it.  I'll go over the PDFs on my iPad later and let you know what I think.  The layout looks fine, the number of outlets looks good it's just the the number of circuits (breakets) that needs improving. Dave Somewhere on the bonneville salt flats Sent from the surveillance van _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss