:) On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> wrote: > > > On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 8:48 AM, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> My question is whose idea was this in the first place? >> > > It was this guy: > > http://i.imgur.com/qmPKJHh.gif > > -- > marc/juul > > > _______________________________________________ > sudo-discuss mailing list > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss > >

Quorum takes 10 people. I really don't consider that a small group. I personally think that voting creates a tyranny of the majority which inherently oppresses minority groups. In a democracy, minorities have to hope for the benevolence of the majority to deign to stoop down low enough to recognize them as people. On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Rachel Wolfsohn &lt;rawjnana(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > I would be wary, sudo, of how few people it already takes to have > quorum, and if that changes... > A small clique of friends can be at a meeting, and make decisions for > all of sudo. > It's a broken system. > > Our leaders can either say > "there's the power, don't give it to anyone, let's split it > consciously" > or > "where's the power? i don't see it" > the latter is falsity in my opinion, it deters you from taking any > the former is truth. > > > I think 1-vote-per-member; remotely solicited when live-vote isn't > possible, is a much sounder way of representing the opinions and needs of > many people. > > to my eyes, consensus seems to be closer to high school social > dynamics than a step in political evolution. i'm definitely disillusioned > about consensus after seeing this project. > > > > > On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 3:30 PM, danarauz(a)gmail.com < > danarauz(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > >> :) >> >> >> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Marc Juul &lt;juul(a)labitat.dk&gt; wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 8:48 AM, Rachel Wolfsohn &lt;rawjnana(a)gmail.com >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> My question is whose idea was this in the first place? >>>> >>> >>> It was this guy: >>> >>> http://i.imgur.com/qmPKJHh.gif >>> >>> -- >>> marc/juul >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sudo-discuss mailing list >>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org >>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss >>> >>> >> > > > -- > <3 Rachel > > _______________________________________________ > sudo-discuss mailing list > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org > https://sudoroom.org/lists/listinfo/sudo-discuss > >

blocking can work. but then someone could block forever something that's reasonable to the majority. there's always a limit, not always gonna make everyone happy. limitations on blocking could prevent this, yes. bc ppl don't always agree, the higher a percentage is for the required the majority, the closer it is to consensus, the system is leaving behind the few rather than the silent, if voting is required. when consensus rules, the loud and confident can get away with murder, esp if those in disaccord happen to be busy at the vet or something... just my belief. consensus won't actually work for the real world- only for a small place of play/leisure, really. where a small group already generally agrees with each other or shares personal interests. yeah, showing up to meetings is an answer. when you can. as people who know Power know well, once something is in effect, it takes a lot more to get people to change it, ... bc there's a perception of there having been agreement by so many in the first place, rather than a small group. Example: the U.S. gov't's structure. It was created by merely dozens of people, for millions, one day hundreds of millions, of people and honestly, it takes faith in a system to participate in it. faith i don't have in any system but that of family, true loyal unstructured unsolicited solidarity, and a universal spirit, at the moment. P.S i've heard talk from sudo's founders about lessening quorum to seven. because attendance is so low. running sudo is already left in the hands of it's founders. perhaps more than you all realize, people don't want to step on your toes... On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 6:18 PM, Ryan &lt;yandoryn(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Also, there's a really obvious answer to this fear of cliques. > > Show up to meetings. > > All members have blocking power. Yay consensus. > > If you're unhappy with a proposal that was passed, make a > counter-proposal. Nothing is set in stone. sudo's policies can change very > quickly. We're not waterfall; we're agile. It's better to deploy our > changes regularly, knowing we can further build on these features than make > sure they're perfect when the race starts. > > On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Ryan &lt;yandoryn(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > >> Quorum takes 10 people. I really don't consider that a small group. >> >> I personally think that voting creates a tyranny of the majority >> which inherently oppresses minority groups. In a democracy, minorities have >> to hope for the benevolence of the majority to deign to stoop down low >> enough to recognize them as people. >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Rachel Wolfsohn &lt;rawjnana(a)gmail.com&gt; >> wrote: >> >>> I would be wary, sudo, of how few people it already takes to have >>> quorum, and if that changes... >>> A small clique of friends can be at a meeting, and make decisions >>> for all of sudo. >>> It's a broken system. >>> >>> Our leaders can either say >>> "there's the power, don't give it to anyone, let's split it >>> consciously" >>> or >>> "where's the power? i don't see it" >>> the latter is falsity in my opinion, it deters you from taking any >>> the former is truth. >>> >>> >>> I think 1-vote-per-member; remotely solicited when live-vote isn't >>> possible, is a much sounder way of representing the opinions and needs of >>> many people. >>> >>> to my eyes, consensus seems to be closer to high school social >>> dynamics than a step in political evolution. i'm definitely disillusioned >>> about consensus after seeing this project. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 3:30 PM, danarauz(a)gmail.com < >>> danarauz(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>> >>>> :) >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Marc Juul &lt;juul(a)labitat.dk&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 8:48 AM, Rachel Wolfsohn < >>>>> rawjnana(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My question is whose idea was this in the first place? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It was this guy: >>>>> >>>>> http://i.imgur.com/qmPKJHh.gif >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> marc/juul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list >>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org >>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> <3 Rachel >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sudo-discuss mailing list >>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org >>> https://sudoroom.org/lists/listinfo/sudo-discuss >>> >>> >> > -- <3 Rachel

Very true, there are plenty of other hackerspaces But sadly, there are few Commons spaces. Few Public spaces. And Sudo is part of a project that wants to be a Commons, open to the public. Alas, I hope this whole land is made of truly communal, public spaces, within my lifetime. And when that time comes, that people are ready for real change, it will be confidence, outspokenness and respect that leads people, as it always was. Which would you choose? Law-given freedom? The freedom allotted by resources held? Or inherent freedom? I officially give up on trying to fix any fucking system. Please, enjoy. :) I'm grateful really. It was about time I snapped out of it; the illusion that living within social structures, even in full-frontal-truth, can actually make a difference. On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Ryan &lt;yandoryn(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Consistent unreasonable blocking is a quick way to find yourself as a > member in bad standing. Blocking isn't meant to be a punitive thing... it's > supposed to be a good way to show how serious something is, so amendments > can be made or discussion can go forward as to why this is a blocking > concern at all. > > We have talked about lowering quorum to seven, but it's never gone > through because we've come to the conclusion that it's better to try and up > meeting attendance rather than reduce quorum. > > If you don't have faith in sudo's system, you don't have to > participate. That's not to say that people wouldn't be sad to see you go, > but it's always an option. If you're finding yourself disillusioned or not > agreeing with sudo's core politics, there are other hackerspaces out there. > The Bay Area has a ton! Maybe you can find one that aligns with you better. > As a moderator of a heavily used web app, I have to remind people of this > constantly. Not every community is for everyone. It'd be kind of messed up > if that were the case. > > Honestly, it sounds like you're having issues with the Omni at large > in general. Maybe it's just not working out. Maybe you need to take a break > and assess if this is the right community for you after all. > > You also have the option of not participating in the system if you > don't have faith in it, without stopping being part of the community. There > are a lot of folks at sudo and the Omni who don't get deep into the > politics or the day-to-day workings. And that's okay. They shouldn't have > to be involved on that level if they don't want to be. > > If you do want to change something, though, and missed a meeting > because of an emergency or a double-booking, again, you are welcome to > submit a counter-proposal. > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Rachel Wolfsohn &lt;rawjnana(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: > >> blocking can work. but then someone could block forever something >> that's reasonable to the majority. there's always a limit, not always gonna >> make everyone happy. limitations on blocking could prevent this, >> yes. >> >> bc ppl don't always agree, the higher a percentage is for the >> required the majority, the closer it is to consensus, the system is leaving >> behind the few rather than the silent, if voting is required. when >> consensus rules, the loud and confident can get away with murder, esp if >> those in disaccord happen to be busy at the vet or something... >> >> just my belief. consensus won't actually work for the real world- >> only for a small place of play/leisure, really. where a small group already >> generally agrees with each other or shares personal interests. >> >> yeah, showing up to meetings is an answer. when you can. >> >> as people who know Power know well, once something is in effect, it >> takes a lot more to get people to change it, >> >> ... bc there's a perception of there having been agreement by so many >> in the first place, rather than a small group. >> Example: >> the U.S. gov't's structure. It was created by merely dozens of >> people, for millions, one day hundreds of millions, of people >> >> and honestly, it takes faith in a system to participate in it. faith >> i don't have in any system but that of family, true loyal unstructured >> unsolicited solidarity, and a universal spirit, at the moment. >> >> >> >> P.S i've heard talk from sudo's founders about lessening quorum to >> seven. because attendance is so low. running sudo is already left in the >> hands of it's founders. perhaps more than you all realize, people >> don't want to step on your toes... >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 6:18 PM, Ryan &lt;yandoryn(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> >>> Also, there's a really obvious answer to this fear of cliques. >>> >>> Show up to meetings. >>> >>> All members have blocking power. Yay consensus. >>> >>> If you're unhappy with a proposal that was passed, make a >>> counter-proposal. Nothing is set in stone. sudo's policies can change very >>> quickly. We're not waterfall; we're agile. It's better to deploy our >>> changes regularly, knowing we can further build on these features than make >>> sure they're perfect when the race starts. >>> >>> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Ryan &lt;yandoryn(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>> >>>> Quorum takes 10 people. I really don't consider that a small group. >>>> >>>> I personally think that voting creates a tyranny of the majority >>>> which inherently oppresses minority groups. In a democracy, minorities have >>>> to hope for the benevolence of the majority to deign to stoop down low >>>> enough to recognize them as people. >>>> >>>> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Rachel Wolfsohn < >>>> rawjnana(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>>> I would be wary, sudo, of how few people it already takes to have >>>>> quorum, and if that changes... >>>>> A small clique of friends can be at a meeting, and make decisions >>>>> for all of sudo. >>>>> It's a broken system. >>>>> >>>>> Our leaders can either say >>>>> "there's the power, don't give it to anyone, let's split it >>>>> consciously" >>>>> or >>>>> "where's the power? i don't see it" >>>>> the latter is falsity in my opinion, it deters you from taking any >>>>> the former is truth. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think 1-vote-per-member; remotely solicited when live-vote isn't >>>>> possible, is a much sounder way of representing the opinions and needs of >>>>> many people. >>>>> >>>>> to my eyes, consensus seems to be closer to high school social >>>>> dynamics than a step in political evolution. i'm definitely disillusioned >>>>> about consensus after seeing this project. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 3:30 PM, danarauz(a)gmail.com < >>>>> danarauz(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> :) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Marc Juul &lt;juul(a)labitat.dk&gt; >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 8:48 AM, Rachel Wolfsohn < >>>>>>> rawjnana(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My question is whose idea was this in the first place? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It was this guy: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://i.imgur.com/qmPKJHh.gif >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> marc/juul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org >>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> <3 Rachel >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list >>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org >>>>> https://sudoroom.org/lists/listinfo/sudo-discuss >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> <3 Rachel >> > > -- <3 Rachel