Re: [sudo-discuss] Today 4/4/15: Pidgen and Daren have been temp banned for safer spaces policy violations
6 Apr
2015
6 Apr
'15
11:59 a.m.
This is very important to me, because I said I wouldn't keep including sudo
discuss, and now i'm going back on that
but WildCat does keep including sudo-discuss,
so I feel like I can't leave it at some long email to one side bias,
whether mine or not
so I'm responding to sudo discuss
to be heard by the group who is already hearing this
sigh, i'm sorry, but I'm upset now....
*People NEED to be given a chance to change. *
*Just because you knew someone for a long time and saw problematic behavior
before doesn't mean they can't come to a new place, *
*and a reformed community, *
*where they can try to learn and grow. *
*If people are not given a chance to grow what would you do with them?*
* If you don't believe people can change, you don't believe in RJ or TJ, *
*and I would LOVE to hear your alternative*
*to my eyes the only other options are punishment or annihilation, like the
state does,*
* if you're really radical, you'll seek alternative forms of resolution*
* besides exile, punishment and "training" people, *
*whenever possible. *
*NOT ONCE have I seen you actually pursue mediation. *
*IN FACT WildCAt is currently refusing to participate in more than one
mediation, *
*and while in some cases i actually agree with that other person being
banned, and see the issues clear*
* my problem wtih this is not about that person being banned,*
* I often think WildCat is right,*
* but it's about THE PROCESS AND RESPECTING IT*
*You Still Have To Go To Mediation *
*In Some Case In Your Life, *
*If You Recognize The Process At All*
*If You're Willing To Work On It, *
*The Refusal Of Mediation Is There To Keep People Safe*
* In Dire Circumstances *
*Not In Any Case You Want*
* And Every Case All The Time*
* Because You Feel Like It And It's Your Privilege*
*I don't feel like you're respecting that process....*
PERSONALLY I feel:
Exile is not a real option for the world. If someone is continuously exiled
and not educated and transforming, they will have no where else to go. This
is part of the world, you can't just close yourself off from it and ignore
people
*If you want it to get better, really get better, judging people and
pushing them out is not the way to actually help it*
*What would you do with them? *
*Put them all in one country? *
*Kind of like a concentration of them?*
* Like a camp? Kill them all off? **All bad ideas. *
*We need to help people grow, and *
*if you consider yourself an organizer *
*or a helper of the world*
* it IS your job to help people grow a*
*nd give people another chance, *
*provided they seek new conditions that will faciiltate growth*
*It has to come from them. Yes.*
*And it is coming from Darin, *
*however slowly he's learning*
Btw "WildCat" You are not yet a member of sudo yet.
And you're scaring people,
with all your bans in a row all of a sudden,
now that you think you have power
*i'm not quitting, but this email put me back over, i'm taking another
break.*
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Cere Misc <cere.misc(a)gmail.com> wrote:
PLEASE TAKE THIS OFF THE SUDO-DISCUSS LIST!
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:32 AM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
--
<3 Rachel
Also with that one month ban I feel that from
then on there would need to
be zero tolerance for any of these behaviors to continue. Last time I saw
him he challenged me to a fight by saying " do you want to walk a couple of
blocks away and handle this like an adult" and my response was to walk
away.. someone brought up to me that I was causing drama by drawing the
line with these people but what folks need to understand is that each of
these people have been going through conflict mediation in this space so
the drama is theirs not mine. I should not be the one to blame for the
taking a stance against the problems these people are causing. Though to be
accountable in dealing with peoples issues I will gather more members of
the space to address them.
On Monday, April 6, 2015, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com> wrote:
So I have known Darin for years and he has been
called out for all of
this behavior before and still hasn't learned. In terms of him misgendering
me it seemed malicious because he accentuated " man" there were several
witnesses to his extremely aggressive behavior that was a defensive
response to me calmly asking why he was yelling at Babs. sexual harassment
is not OK. I don't think you can speak for the other people who have called
him out for inappropriate flirting. I had the conflict mediated by Joe but
but still just acts the same to different people. I would propose a month
ban at least so he gets that its not being accountable will have serious
consequences.
On Sunday, April 5, 2015, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> This is the last email I will include sudodisxuss on for this thread...
>
> Darin is currently undergoing mediation, and should be given the chance
> to do so before a ban goes through.
>
> I have a blocking concern for such a ban on darin....
>
> My belief that darin can change enough, however slowly, is justified
> and potent.
>
> I have seen he already has. In front of me at least, he no longer
> misgenders anyone, including those ppl he previously had, after we
> discussed it one night. Even if he's pissed at them. An immediate
> improvement from the heart and higher self layered under psychic shit like
> we all have to deal with just like him, is what I see...He is actively
> working, works hard in general and physically protects ppl from harassment
> daily.
>
> Misgendering:
> I too have been editing "he" for "them" with you Wildcat, because
your
> gender pronoun is recent news to me as well as to many others.
> I strive to use They, bc of respect for trans identity in general, and
> ALSO camaraderie with you.
> But it takes a little time, and it is in good faith with continuous
> editing on my part, as it is for others.
> I'm really sorry you are hurt by misgendering and will do my best to
> correct the instances I witness. As I'm sure Darin will too, now that this
> information is available
>
> Sexual Language:
> Darin is working on this too. I have twice hung out with darin and
> neded to comment on his comments, asking him to hold his tongue, bc it was
> TMI about his sexual thoughts.
> It was not safe space language, and I asked him to.hold his tongue, but
> not an implication of action either, more like expression.
> Without FAIL he immediately apologizes and aims to hold back such
> comments. He is actively learning what to reserve to his private thoughts
> and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart...
>
> Thus, I have a blocking.concern for this ban suggested for Darin
>
> Love, seriously, love,
>
> On Sun, Apr 05, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Torrie Fischer <
> tdfischer(a)hackerbots.net> wrote:
>
> Theres community issues, then theres "issues that involve the hundreds
> of
> people subscribed to sudo-discuss".
>
> This is not one of those issues. I have no involvement with this. I
> don't want
> to get involved with this. I'd honestly rather not hear about who is
> fighting
> who, or see people tearing down each other in public. I'd rather just
> hack a
> thing and assume that Sudo Room is a happy cheery place that has their
> shit
> together and everyone gets along.
>
> My Ƀ0.02.
>
> On Saturday, April 04, 2015 03:37:39 PM WIld Cat wrote:
> > These are community issues not personal issues.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Tracy Jacobs <kinetical(a)comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > > Sudoers,
> > >
> > > Respectfully can I suggest that you find another way to address
> issues of
> > > a personal nature and character assassinations or public shaming
> other
> > > than
> > > this public mailing list? Why anyone would want to go to Sudo room
> after
> > > reading this mailing list is beyond my comprehension. And it
> really is a
> > > great place. Can anyone think of another venue for these types of
> > > discussions?
> > >
> > > Tracy
> > > On Apr 4, 2015, at 2:41 PM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Daren returned to the space about 20 mins after trying to re-enter
> and
> > > said to me " Do you want to go a couplwe blocks away from here and
> handle
> > > this like an adult."
> > >
> > > Pidgen is claiming that I threatened her and I did tell her that
> "you need
> > > to chill out or some shit is going to happen" but I also clarified
> by
> > > saying "I am not threatening you with any form of violence."
> > >
> > > Darin is claiming that Babs sexually assaulted someone but Darin
> did not
> > > give any details of what happened.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM, WIld Cat <
> wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >> Today Pidgen was asked to leave in violation of the safer spaces
> policy
> > >> on an admitted account of sexual assault in the past as well as
> recent
> > >> behaviors of harassment. Daren was asked to leave in violation of
> the
> > >> safer
> > >> spaces policy by aggressive behavior (aggressive swearing,
> intentional
> > >> misgendering, inappropriate sexual comments (Told me in an
> aggressive way
> > >> that he liked phone sex, than began to yell at me.) He has had a
> history
> > >> of
> > >> being banned from spaces for similar behaviors of sexual
> harassment and
> > >> inappropriate behavior.
> > >>
> > >> I would like to begin a mediation process for Daren and I do not
> feel
> > >> safe with him being in the space during such process.
> > >>
> > >> To my knowledge there is an ongoing mediation between Pidgen and
> Centi.
> > >> that Pidgen has allegedly violated due to harassing behavior.
> Pidgen has
> > >> been banned from several other radical spaces for entitlement
> problems -
> > >> theft - aggressive behaivor - accountability issues.
> > >> I do not feel safe in the presences of Pidgen and would call on the
> > >> community to permanently ban Pidgen.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
> > > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
6 Apr
6 Apr
12:02 p.m.
New subject: Today 4/4/15: Pidgen and Daren have been temp banned for safer spaces policy violations
and Darin needs to be held accountable
but so does WildCat for process respect
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana(a)gmail.com> wrote:
This is very important to me, because I said I
wouldn't keep including
sudo discuss, and now i'm going back on that
but WildCat does keep including sudo-discuss,
so I feel like I can't leave it at some long email to one side bias,
whether mine or not
so I'm responding to sudo discuss
to be heard by the group who is already hearing this
sigh, i'm sorry, but I'm upset now....
*People NEED to be given a chance to change. *
*Just because you knew someone for a long time and saw problematic
behavior before doesn't mean they can't come to a new place, *
*and a reformed community, *
*where they can try to learn and grow. *
*If people are not given a chance to grow what would you do with them?*
* If you don't believe people can change, you don't believe in RJ or TJ, *
*and I would LOVE to hear your alternative*
*to my eyes the only other options are punishment or annihilation, like
the state does,*
* if you're really radical, you'll seek alternative forms of resolution*
* besides exile, punishment and "training" people, *
*whenever possible. *
*NOT ONCE have I seen you actually pursue mediation. *
*IN FACT WildCAt is currently refusing to participate in more than one
mediation, *
*and while in some cases i actually agree with that other person being
banned, and see the issues clear*
* my problem wtih this is not about that person being banned,*
* I often think WildCat is right,*
* but it's about THE PROCESS AND RESPECTING IT*
*You Still Have To Go To Mediation *
*In Some Case In Your Life, *
*If You Recognize The Process At All*
*If You're Willing To Work On It, *
*The Refusal Of Mediation Is There To Keep People Safe*
* In Dire Circumstances *
*Not In Any Case You Want*
* And Every Case All The Time*
* Because You Feel Like It And It's Your Privilege*
*I don't feel like you're respecting that process....*
PERSONALLY I feel:
Exile is not a real option for the world. If someone is continuously
exiled and not educated and transforming, they will have no where else to
go. This is part of the world, you can't just close yourself off from it
and ignore people
*If you want it to get better, really get better, judging people and
pushing them out is not the way to actually help it*
*What would you do with them? *
*Put them all in one country? *
*Kind of like a concentration of them?*
* Like a camp? Kill them all off? **All bad ideas. *
*We need to help people grow, and *
*if you consider yourself an organizer *
*or a helper of the world*
* it IS your job to help people grow a*
*nd give people another chance, *
*provided they seek new conditions that will faciiltate growth*
*It has to come from them. Yes.*
*And it is coming from Darin, *
*however slowly he's learning*
Btw "WildCat" You are not yet a member of sudo yet.
And you're scaring people,
with all your bans in a row all of a sudden,
now that you think you have power
*i'm not quitting, but this email put me back over, i'm taking another
break.*
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Cere Misc <cere.misc(a)gmail.com> wrote:
--
<3 Rachel
PLEASE TAKE THIS OFF THE SUDO-DISCUSS LIST!
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:32 AM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
--
<3 Rachel
Also with that one month ban I feel that from
then on there would need
to be zero tolerance for any of these behaviors to continue. Last time I
saw him he challenged me to a fight by saying " do you want to walk a
couple of blocks away and handle this like an adult" and my response was to
walk away.. someone brought up to me that I was causing drama by drawing
the line with these people but what folks need to understand is that each
of these people have been going through conflict mediation in this space so
the drama is theirs not mine. I should not be the one to blame for the
taking a stance against the problems these people are causing. Though to be
accountable in dealing with peoples issues I will gather more members of
the space to address them.
On Monday, April 6, 2015, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com> wrote:
So I have known Darin for years and he has been
called out for all of
this behavior before and still hasn't learned. In terms of him misgendering
me it seemed malicious because he accentuated " man" there were several
witnesses to his extremely aggressive behavior that was a defensive
response to me calmly asking why he was yelling at Babs. sexual harassment
is not OK. I don't think you can speak for the other people who have called
him out for inappropriate flirting. I had the conflict mediated by Joe but
but still just acts the same to different people. I would propose a month
ban at least so he gets that its not being accountable will have serious
consequences.
On Sunday, April 5, 2015, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> This is the last email I will include sudodisxuss on for this thread...
>
> Darin is currently undergoing mediation, and should be given the
> chance to do so before a ban goes through.
>
> I have a blocking concern for such a ban on darin....
>
> My belief that darin can change enough, however slowly, is justified
> and potent.
>
> I have seen he already has. In front of me at least, he no longer
> misgenders anyone, including those ppl he previously had, after we
> discussed it one night. Even if he's pissed at them. An immediate
> improvement from the heart and higher self layered under psychic shit like
> we all have to deal with just like him, is what I see...He is actively
> working, works hard in general and physically protects ppl from harassment
> daily.
>
> Misgendering:
> I too have been editing "he" for "them" with you Wildcat, because
your
> gender pronoun is recent news to me as well as to many others.
> I strive to use They, bc of respect for trans identity in general, and
> ALSO camaraderie with you.
> But it takes a little time, and it is in good faith with continuous
> editing on my part, as it is for others.
> I'm really sorry you are hurt by misgendering and will do my best to
> correct the instances I witness. As I'm sure Darin will too, now that this
> information is available
>
> Sexual Language:
> Darin is working on this too. I have twice hung out with darin and
> neded to comment on his comments, asking him to hold his tongue, bc it was
> TMI about his sexual thoughts.
> It was not safe space language, and I asked him to.hold his tongue,
> but not an implication of action either, more like expression.
> Without FAIL he immediately apologizes and aims to hold back such
> comments. He is actively learning what to reserve to his private thoughts
> and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart...
>
> Thus, I have a blocking.concern for this ban suggested for Darin
>
> Love, seriously, love,
>
> On Sun, Apr 05, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Torrie Fischer <
> tdfischer(a)hackerbots.net> wrote:
>
> Theres community issues, then theres "issues that involve the hundreds
> of
> people subscribed to sudo-discuss".
>
> This is not one of those issues. I have no involvement with this. I
> don't want
> to get involved with this. I'd honestly rather not hear about who is
> fighting
> who, or see people tearing down each other in public. I'd rather just
> hack a
> thing and assume that Sudo Room is a happy cheery place that has their
> shit
> together and everyone gets along.
>
> My Ƀ0.02.
>
> On Saturday, April 04, 2015 03:37:39 PM WIld Cat wrote:
> > These are community issues not personal issues.
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Tracy Jacobs <kinetical(a)comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > > Sudoers,
> > >
> > > Respectfully can I suggest that you find another way to address
> issues of
> > > a personal nature and character assassinations or public shaming
> other
> > > than
> > > this public mailing list? Why anyone would want to go to Sudo
> room after
> > > reading this mailing list is beyond my comprehension. And it
> really is a
> > > great place. Can anyone think of another venue for these types of
> > > discussions?
> > >
> > > Tracy
> > > On Apr 4, 2015, at 2:41 PM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Daren returned to the space about 20 mins after trying to re-enter
> and
> > > said to me " Do you want to go a couplwe blocks away from here and
> handle
> > > this like an adult."
> > >
> > > Pidgen is claiming that I threatened her and I did tell her that
> "you need
> > > to chill out or some shit is going to happen" but I also clarified
> by
> > > saying "I am not threatening you with any form of violence."
> > >
> > > Darin is claiming that Babs sexually assaulted someone but Darin
> did not
> > > give any details of what happened.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM, WIld Cat <
> wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >> Today Pidgen was asked to leave in violation of the safer spaces
> policy
> > >> on an admitted account of sexual assault in the past as well as
> recent
> > >> behaviors of harassment. Daren was asked to leave in violation of
> the
> > >> safer
> > >> spaces policy by aggressive behavior (aggressive swearing,
> intentional
> > >> misgendering, inappropriate sexual comments (Told me in an
> aggressive way
> > >> that he liked phone sex, than began to yell at me.) He has had a
> history
> > >> of
> > >> being banned from spaces for similar behaviors of sexual
> harassment and
> > >> inappropriate behavior.
> > >>
> > >> I would like to begin a mediation process for Daren and I do not
> feel
> > >> safe with him being in the space during such process.
> > >>
> > >> To my knowledge there is an ongoing mediation between Pidgen and
> Centi.
> > >> that Pidgen has allegedly violated due to harassing behavior.
> Pidgen has
> > >> been banned from several other radical spaces for entitlement
> problems -
> > >> theft - aggressive behaivor - accountability issues.
> > >> I do not feel safe in the presences of Pidgen and would call on
> the
> > >> community to permanently ban Pidgen.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
> > > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
1:27 p.m.
New subject: Today 4/4/15: Pidgen and Daren have been temp banned for safer spaces policy violations
This is very not important to me because I don't want to read this on sudo
discuss so I'm unsubscribing from sudo discuss for a while because everyone
keeps including sudo-discuss as if it somehow makes everything better.
On Monday, April 06, 2015 11:59:40 AM Rachel Wolfsohn wrote:
This is very important to me, because I said I
wouldn't keep including sudo
discuss, and now i'm going back on that
but WildCat does keep including sudo-discuss,
so I feel like I can't leave it at some long email to one side bias,
whether mine or not
so I'm responding to sudo discuss
to be heard by the group who is already hearing this
sigh, i'm sorry, but I'm upset now....
*People NEED to be given a chance to change. *
*Just because you knew someone for a long time and saw problematic behavior
before doesn't mean they can't come to a new place, *
*and a reformed community, *
*where they can try to learn and grow. *
*If people are not given a chance to grow what would you do with them?*
* If you don't believe people can change, you don't believe in RJ or TJ, *
*and I would LOVE to hear your alternative*
*to my eyes the only other options are punishment or annihilation, like the
state does,*
* if you're really radical, you'll seek alternative forms of resolution*
* besides exile, punishment and "training" people, *
*whenever possible. *
*NOT ONCE have I seen you actually pursue mediation. *
*IN FACT WildCAt is currently refusing to participate in more than one
mediation, *
*and while in some cases i actually agree with that other person being
banned, and see the issues clear*
* my problem wtih this is not about that person being banned,*
* I often think WildCat is right,*
* but it's about THE PROCESS AND RESPECTING IT*
*You Still Have To Go To Mediation *
*In Some Case In Your Life, *
*If You Recognize The Process At All*
*If You're Willing To Work On It, *
*The Refusal Of Mediation Is There To Keep People Safe*
* In Dire Circumstances *
*Not In Any Case You Want*
* And Every Case All The Time*
* Because You Feel Like It And It's Your Privilege*
*I don't feel like you're respecting that process....*
PERSONALLY I feel:
Exile is not a real option for the world. If someone is continuously exiled
and not educated and transforming, they will have no where else to go. This
is part of the world, you can't just close yourself off from it and ignore
people
*If you want it to get better, really get better, judging people and
pushing them out is not the way to actually help it*
*What would you do with them? *
*Put them all in one country? *
*Kind of like a concentration of them?*
* Like a camp? Kill them all off? **All bad ideas. *
*We need to help people grow, and *
*if you consider yourself an organizer *
*or a helper of the world*
* it IS your job to help people grow a*
*nd give people another chance, *
*provided they seek new conditions that will faciiltate growth*
*It has to come from them. Yes.*
*And it is coming from Darin, *
*however slowly he's learning*
Btw "WildCat" You are not yet a member of sudo yet.
And you're scaring people,
with all your bans in a row all of a sudden,
now that you think you have power
*i'm not quitting, but this email put me back over, i'm taking another
break.*
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Cere Misc <cere.misc(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> PLEASE TAKE THIS OFF THE SUDO-DISCUSS LIST!
>
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:32 AM, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>> Also with that one month ban I feel that from then on there would need to
>> be zero tolerance for any of these behaviors to continue. Last time I saw
>> him he challenged me to a fight by saying " do you want to walk a couple
>> of
>> blocks away and handle this like an adult" and my response was to walk
>> away.. someone brought up to me that I was causing drama by drawing the
>> line with these people but what folks need to understand is that each of
>> these people have been going through conflict mediation in this space so
>> the drama is theirs not mine. I should not be the one to blame for the
>> taking a stance against the problems these people are causing. Though to
>> be
>> accountable in dealing with peoples issues I will gather more members of
>> the space to address them.
>>
>> On Monday, April 6, 2015, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>> So I have known Darin for years and he has been called out for all of
>>> this behavior before and still hasn't learned. In terms of him
>>> misgendering
>>> me it seemed malicious because he accentuated " man" there were
several
>>> witnesses to his extremely aggressive behavior that was a defensive
>>> response to me calmly asking why he was yelling at Babs. sexual
>>> harassment
>>> is not OK. I don't think you can speak for the other people who have
>>> called
>>> him out for inappropriate flirting. I had the conflict mediated by Joe
>>> but
>>> but still just acts the same to different people. I would propose a
>>> month
>>> ban at least so he gets that its not being accountable will have serious
>>> consequences.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, April 5, 2015, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> This is the last email I will include sudodisxuss on for this thread...
>>>>
>>>> Darin is currently undergoing mediation, and should be given the chance
>>>> to do so before a ban goes through.
>>>>
>>>> I have a blocking concern for such a ban on darin....
>>>>
>>>> My belief that darin can change enough, however slowly, is justified
>>>> and potent.
>>>>
>>>> I have seen he already has. In front of me at least, he no longer
>>>> misgenders anyone, including those ppl he previously had, after we
>>>> discussed it one night. Even if he's pissed at them. An immediate
>>>> improvement from the heart and higher self layered under psychic shit
>>>> like
>>>> we all have to deal with just like him, is what I see...He is actively
>>>> working, works hard in general and physically protects ppl from
>>>> harassment
>>>> daily.
>>>>
>>>> Misgendering:
>>>> I too have been editing "he" for "them" with you
Wildcat, because your
>>>> gender pronoun is recent news to me as well as to many others.
>>>> I strive to use They, bc of respect for trans identity in general, and
>>>> ALSO camaraderie with you.
>>>> But it takes a little time, and it is in good faith with continuous
>>>> editing on my part, as it is for others.
>>>> I'm really sorry you are hurt by misgendering and will do my best
to
>>>> correct the instances I witness. As I'm sure Darin will too, now
that
>>>> this
>>>> information is available
>>>>
>>>> Sexual Language:
>>>> Darin is working on this too. I have twice hung out with darin and
>>>> neded to comment on his comments, asking him to hold his tongue, bc it
>>>> was
>>>> TMI about his sexual thoughts.
>>>> It was not safe space language, and I asked him to.hold his tongue, but
>>>> not an implication of action either, more like expression.
>>>> Without FAIL he immediately apologizes and aims to hold back such
>>>> comments. He is actively learning what to reserve to his private
>>>> thoughts
>>>> and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart...
>>>>
>>>> Thus, I have a blocking.concern for this ban suggested for Darin
>>>>
>>>> Love, seriously, love,
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 05, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Torrie Fischer <
>>>> tdfischer(a)hackerbots.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Theres community issues, then theres "issues that involve the
hundreds
>>>> of
>>>> people subscribed to sudo-discuss".
>>>>
>>>> This is not one of those issues. I have no involvement with this. I
>>>> don't want
>>>> to get involved with this. I'd honestly rather not hear about who
is
>>>> fighting
>>>> who, or see people tearing down each other in public. I'd rather
just
>>>> hack a
>>>> thing and assume that Sudo Room is a happy cheery place that has their
>>>> shit
>>>> together and everyone gets along.
>>>>
>>>> My Ƀ0.02.
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday, April 04, 2015 03:37:39 PM WIld Cat wrote:
>>>> > These are community issues not personal issues.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Tracy Jacobs
<kinetical(a)comcast.net>
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > > Sudoers,
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Respectfully can I suggest that you find another way to
address
>>>>
>>>> issues of
>>>>
>>>> > > a personal nature and character assassinations or public
shaming
>>>>
>>>> other
>>>>
>>>> > > than
>>>> > > this public mailing list? Why anyone would want to go to Sudo
room
>>>>
>>>> after
>>>>
>>>> > > reading this mailing list is beyond my comprehension. And
it
>>>>
>>>> really is a
>>>>
>>>> > > great place. Can anyone think of another venue for these
types of
>>>> > > discussions?
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Tracy
>>>> > > On Apr 4, 2015, at 2:41 PM, WIld Cat
<wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > > Daren returned to the space about 20 mins after trying to
re-enter
>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> > > said to me " Do you want to go a couplwe blocks away from
here and
>>>>
>>>> handle
>>>>
>>>> > > this like an adult."
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Pidgen is claiming that I threatened her and I did tell her
that
>>>>
>>>> "you need
>>>>
>>>> > > to chill out or some shit is going to happen" but I also
clarified
>>>>
>>>> by
>>>>
>>>> > > saying "I am not threatening you with any form of
violence."
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Darin is claiming that Babs sexually assaulted someone but
Darin
>>>>
>>>> did not
>>>>
>>>> > > give any details of what happened.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM, WIld Cat <
>>>>
>>>> wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> > > wrote:
>>>> > >> Today Pidgen was asked to leave in violation of the safer
spaces
>>>>
>>>> policy
>>>>
>>>> > >> on an admitted account of sexual assault in the past as
well as
>>>>
>>>> recent
>>>>
>>>> > >> behaviors of harassment. Daren was asked to leave in
violation of
>>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> > >> safer
>>>> > >> spaces policy by aggressive behavior (aggressive
swearing,
>>>>
>>>> intentional
>>>>
>>>> > >> misgendering, inappropriate sexual comments (Told me in
an
>>>>
>>>> aggressive way
>>>>
>>>> > >> that he liked phone sex, than began to yell at me.) He has
had a
>>>>
>>>> history
>>>>
>>>> > >> of
>>>> > >> being banned from spaces for similar behaviors of sexual
>>>>
>>>> harassment and
>>>>
>>>> > >> inappropriate behavior.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> I would like to begin a mediation process for Daren and I
do not
>>>>
>>>> feel
>>>>
>>>> > >> safe with him being in the space during such process.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> To my knowledge there is an ongoing mediation between
Pidgen and
>>>>
>>>> Centi.
>>>>
>>>> > >> that Pidgen has allegedly violated due to harassing
behavior.
>>>>
>>>> Pidgen has
>>>>
>>>> > >> been banned from several other radical spaces for
entitlement
>>>>
>>>> problems -
>>>>
>>>> > >> theft - aggressive behaivor - accountability issues.
>>>> > >> I do not feel safe in the presences of Pidgen and would
call on
>>>> > >> the
>>>> > >> community to permanently ban Pidgen.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> > > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
2:02 p.m.
New subject: Today 4/4/15: Pidgen and Daren have been temp banned for safer spaces policy violations
3:25 p.m.
New subject: Today 4/4/15: Pidgen and Daren have been temp banned for safer spaces policy violations
friendly reminder - our conflict resolution process was born out of a
desire to keep conflicts from consuming the time and energy of the whole
community, especially those that are not involved in the conflict and do
not have bandwidth to help mediate as an impartial party - this includes
general meetings and discussion forums
On 2015-04-06 14:02, Rachel Wolfsohn wrote:
I'm sorry, Torrie, I really am....sudoconsensus
may be needed?
On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Torrie Fischer
<tdfischer(a)hackerbots.net> wrote:
Links:
------
[1] https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
This is very not important to me because I
don't want to read this on
sudo
discuss so I'm unsubscribing from sudo discuss for a while because
everyone
keeps including sudo-discuss as if it somehow makes everything better.
On Monday, April 06, 2015 11:59:40 AM Rachel Wolfsohn wrote:
> This is very important to me, because I said I wouldn't keep
> including sudo
> discuss, and now i'm going back on that
> but WildCat does keep including sudo-discuss,
> so I feel like I can't leave it at some long email to one side bias,
> whether mine or not
> so I'm responding to sudo discuss
> to be heard by the group who is already hearing this
>
> sigh, i'm sorry, but I'm upset now....
>
> *People NEED to be given a chance to change. *
> *Just because you knew someone for a long time and saw problematic
> behavior
> before doesn't mean they can't come to a new place, *
> *and a reformed community, *
> *where they can try to learn and grow. *
>
> *If people are not given a chance to grow what would you do with
> them?*
>
> * If you don't believe people can change, you don't believe in RJ or
> TJ, *
> *and I would LOVE to hear your alternative*
> *to my eyes the only other options are punishment or annihilation,
> like the
> state does,*
> * if you're really radical, you'll seek alternative forms of
> resolution*
> * besides exile, punishment and "training" people, *
> *whenever possible. *
>
> *NOT ONCE have I seen you actually pursue mediation. *
>
> *IN FACT WildCAt is currently refusing to participate in more than
> one
> mediation, *
> *and while in some cases i actually agree with that other person
> being
> banned, and see the issues clear*
> * my problem wtih this is not about that person being banned,*
> * I often think WildCat is right,*
> * but it's about THE PROCESS AND RESPECTING IT*
>
> *You Still Have To Go To Mediation *
> *In Some Case In Your Life, *
> *If You Recognize The Process At All*
>
> *If You're Willing To Work On It, *
>
> *The Refusal Of Mediation Is There To Keep People Safe*
> * In Dire Circumstances *
> *Not In Any Case You Want*
> * And Every Case All The Time*
> * Because You Feel Like It And It's Your Privilege*
>
> *I don't feel like you're respecting that process....*
>
> PERSONALLY I feel:
> Exile is not a real option for the world. If someone is continuously
> exiled
> and not educated and transforming, they will have no where else to
> go. This
> is part of the world, you can't just close yourself off from it and
> ignore
> people
>
> *If you want it to get better, really get better, judging people and
> pushing them out is not the way to actually help it*
>
> *What would you do with them? *
> *Put them all in one country? *
> *Kind of like a concentration of them?*
> * Like a camp? Kill them all off? **All bad ideas. *
>
> *We need to help people grow, and *
> *if you consider yourself an organizer *
> *or a helper of the world*
> * it IS your job to help people grow a*
> *nd give people another chance, *
> *provided they seek new conditions that will faciiltate growth*
>
> *It has to come from them. Yes.*
> *And it is coming from Darin, *
> *however slowly he's learning*
>
> Btw "WildCat" You are not yet a member of sudo yet.
> And you're scaring people,
> with all your bans in a row all of a sudden,
>
> now that you think you have power
>
> *i'm not quitting, but this email put me back over, i'm taking
> another
> break.*
>
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Cere Misc <cere.misc(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> PLEASE TAKE THIS OFF THE SUDO-DISCUSS LIST!
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:32 AM, WIld Cat
>> <wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
>>
>> wrote:
>>> Also with that one month ban I feel that from then on there would
>>> need to
>>> be zero tolerance for any of these behaviors to continue. Last time
>>> I saw
>>> him he challenged me to a fight by saying " do you want to walk a
>>> couple
>>> of
>>> blocks away and handle this like an adult" and my response was to
>>> walk
>>> away.. someone brought up to me that I was causing drama by drawing
>>> the
>>> line with these people but what folks need to understand is that
>>> each of
>>> these people have been going through conflict mediation in this
>>> space so
>>> the drama is theirs not mine. I should not be the one to blame for
>>> the
>>> taking a stance against the problems these people are causing.
>>> Though to
>>> be
>>> accountable in dealing with peoples issues I will gather more
>>> members of
>>> the space to address them.
>>>
>>> On Monday, April 6, 2015, WIld Cat <wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> So I have known Darin for years and he has been called out for all
>>>> of
>>>> this behavior before and still hasn't learned. In terms of him
>>>> misgendering
>>>> me it seemed malicious because he accentuated " man" there were
>>>> several
>>>> witnesses to his extremely aggressive behavior that was a
>>>> defensive
>>>> response to me calmly asking why he was yelling at Babs. sexual
>>>> harassment
>>>> is not OK. I don't think you can speak for the other people who
>>>> have
>>>> called
>>>> him out for inappropriate flirting. I had the conflict mediated by
>>>> Joe
>>>> but
>>>> but still just acts the same to different people. I would propose
>>>> a
>>>> month
>>>> ban at least so he gets that its not being accountable will have
>>>> serious
>>>> consequences.
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, April 5, 2015, Rachel Wolfsohn <rawjnana(a)gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> This is the last email I will include sudodisxuss on for this
>>>>> thread...
>>>>>
>>>>> Darin is currently undergoing mediation, and should be given the
>>>>> chance
>>>>> to do so before a ban goes through.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a blocking concern for such a ban on darin....
>>>>>
>>>>> My belief that darin can change enough, however slowly, is
>>>>> justified
>>>>> and potent.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen he already has. In front of me at least, he no longer
>>>>> misgenders anyone, including those ppl he previously had, after
>>>>> we
>>>>> discussed it one night. Even if he's pissed at them. An
immediate
>>>>> improvement from the heart and higher self layered under psychic
>>>>> shit
>>>>> like
>>>>> we all have to deal with just like him, is what I see...He is
>>>>> actively
>>>>> working, works hard in general and physically protects ppl from
>>>>> harassment
>>>>> daily.
>>>>>
>>>>> Misgendering:
>>>>> I too have been editing "he" for "them" with you
Wildcat, because
>>>>> your
>>>>> gender pronoun is recent news to me as well as to many others.
>>>>> I strive to use They, bc of respect for trans identity in
>>>>> general, and
>>>>> ALSO camaraderie with you.
>>>>> But it takes a little time, and it is in good faith with
>>>>> continuous
>>>>> editing on my part, as it is for others.
>>>>> I'm really sorry you are hurt by misgendering and will do my best
>>>>> to
>>>>> correct the instances I witness. As I'm sure Darin will too, now
>>>>> that
>>>>> this
>>>>> information is available
>>>>>
>>>>> Sexual Language:
>>>>> Darin is working on this too. I have twice hung out with darin
>>>>> and
>>>>> neded to comment on his comments, asking him to hold his tongue,
>>>>> bc it
>>>>> was
>>>>> TMI about his sexual thoughts.
>>>>> It was not safe space language, and I asked him to.hold his
>>>>> tongue, but
>>>>> not an implication of action either, more like expression.
>>>>> Without FAIL he immediately apologizes and aims to hold back such
>>>>> comments. He is actively learning what to reserve to his private
>>>>> thoughts
>>>>> and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus, I have a blocking.concern for this ban suggested for Darin
>>>>>
>>>>> Love, seriously, love,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Apr 05, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Torrie Fischer <
>>>>> tdfischer(a)hackerbots.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Theres community issues, then theres "issues that involve the
>>>>> hundreds
>>>>> of
>>>>> people subscribed to sudo-discuss".
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not one of those issues. I have no involvement with this.
>>>>> I
>>>>> don't want
>>>>> to get involved with this. I'd honestly rather not hear about who
>>>>> is
>>>>> fighting
>>>>> who, or see people tearing down each other in public. I'd rather
>>>>> just
>>>>> hack a
>>>>> thing and assume that Sudo Room is a happy cheery place that has
>>>>> their
>>>>> shit
>>>>> together and everyone gets along.
>>>>>
>>>>> My Ƀ0.02.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, April 04, 2015 03:37:39 PM WIld Cat wrote:
>>>>> > These are community issues not personal issues.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Tracy Jacobs
<kinetical(a)comcast.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > > Sudoers,
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Respectfully can I suggest that you find another way to
address
>>>>>
>>>>> issues of
>>>>>
>>>>> > > a personal nature and character assassinations or public
shaming
>>>>>
>>>>> other
>>>>>
>>>>> > > than
>>>>> > > this public mailing list? Why anyone would want to go to
Sudo room
>>>>>
>>>>> after
>>>>>
>>>>> > > reading this mailing list is beyond my comprehension. And
it
>>>>>
>>>>> really is a
>>>>>
>>>>> > > great place. Can anyone think of another venue for these
types of
>>>>> > > discussions?
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Tracy
>>>>> > > On Apr 4, 2015, at 2:41 PM, WIld Cat
<wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > > Daren returned to the space about 20 mins after trying to
re-enter
>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> > > said to me " Do you want to go a couplwe blocks away
from here and
>>>>>
>>>>> handle
>>>>>
>>>>> > > this like an adult."
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Pidgen is claiming that I threatened her and I did tell her
that
>>>>>
>>>>> "you need
>>>>>
>>>>> > > to chill out or some shit is going to happen" but I
also clarified
>>>>>
>>>>> by
>>>>>
>>>>> > > saying "I am not threatening you with any form of
violence."
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Darin is claiming that Babs sexually assaulted someone but
Darin
>>>>>
>>>>> did not
>>>>>
>>>>> > > give any details of what happened.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM, WIld Cat <
>>>>>
>>>>> wildcatofthewoods(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> > > wrote:
>>>>> > >> Today Pidgen was asked to leave in violation of the
safer spaces
>>>>>
>>>>> policy
>>>>>
>>>>> > >> on an admitted account of sexual assault in the past as
well as
>>>>>
>>>>> recent
>>>>>
>>>>> > >> behaviors of harassment. Daren was asked to leave in
violation of
>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> > >> safer
>>>>> > >> spaces policy by aggressive behavior (aggressive
swearing,
>>>>>
>>>>> intentional
>>>>>
>>>>> > >> misgendering, inappropriate sexual comments (Told me in
an
>>>>>
>>>>> aggressive way
>>>>>
>>>>> > >> that he liked phone sex, than began to yell at me.) He
has had a
>>>>>
>>>>> history
>>>>>
>>>>> > >> of
>>>>> > >> being banned from spaces for similar behaviors of
sexual
>>>>>
>>>>> harassment and
>>>>>
>>>>> > >> inappropriate behavior.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> I would like to begin a mediation process for Daren and
I do not
>>>>>
>>>>> feel
>>>>>
>>>>> > >> safe with him being in the space during such process.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> To my knowledge there is an ongoing mediation between
Pidgen and
>>>>>
>>>>> Centi.
>>>>>
>>>>> > >> that Pidgen has allegedly violated due to harassing
behavior.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pidgen has
>>>>>
>>>>> > >> been banned from several other radical spaces for
entitlement
>>>>>
>>>>> problems -
>>>>>
>>>>> > >> theft - aggressive behaivor - accountability issues.
>>>>> > >> I do not feel safe in the presences of Pidgen and would
call on
>>>>> > >> the
>>>>> > >> community to permanently ban Pidgen.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> > > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
_______________________________________________
sudo-discuss mailing list
sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org
https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss [1]
3329
days inactive
3329
days old
4 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
-
hol＠gaskill.com -
Rachel Wolfsohn -
Torrie Fischer