If we know someone in the cleaning biz, we could get an estimate from them for cleaning X times per week. Though if we do this, we should also agree on a rule of "no more eating / drinking in the space after it's been cleaned on those nights, unless you scrupulously clean up after yourself." OTOH, I'm not so pessimistic about us not having cleaning skills. What we don't have is a full set of dedicated custodial tools. We have trash bins on wheels, which are a good start. What we need is a duster on a long handle (for reaching woodwork above head height e.g. door frames), a working carpet sweeper (for picking up spot messes such as crumbs quickly & quietly on nights when we're not vacuuming), a working upright vacuum (vacuuming once or twice a week should be sufficient, plus after events), and a supply of regularly-laundered cleaning rags & Windex. The general paradigm is, start by picking up large objects, then work downward from the highest surfaces to the floor, then sweep or vacuum, then wipe down the tables & counters with Windex. While this is going on, another person can wash dishes, for which we need a supply of dish soap, a scrubbing brush, and a supply of clean sponges. This can be done by a crew of from 2 - 4 people surprisingly quickly. I'm told that the upright vacuum isn't working. Repairing vacuums is relatively easy, though if parts are needed (e.g. replace broken suction fan impeller) that may be an issue. Next time I'm around with my tools I'll take a look at it. -G. ===== On 13-05-16-Thu 7:17 AM, Romy Ilano wrote: pay someone to clean? clean the common room and the space ? future and that is ok _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:;> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss

> could make sudo chores signup part of membership

could make sudo chores signup part of membership May 16, 2013 07:48:47 AM, sonja.trauss(a)gmail.com wrote: Yeah I think you should hire a few sudoers and then maybe that person will donate part of that money back as dues. of you don't have a vacuum. >On Thursday, May 16, 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote: If we know someone in the cleaning biz, we could get an estimate from them for cleaning X times per week. Though if we do this, we should also agree on a rule of "no more eating / drinking in the space after it's been cleaned on those nights, unless you scrupulously clean up after yourself." OTOH, I'm not so pessimistic about us not having cleaning skills. What we don't have is a full set of dedicated custodial tools. We have trash bins on wheels, which are a good start. What we need is a duster on a long handle (for reaching woodwork above head height e.g. door frames), a working carpet sweeper (for picking up spot messes such as crumbs quickly & quietly on nights when we're not vacuuming), a working upright vacuum (vacuuming once or twice a week should be sufficient, plus after events), and a supply of regularly-laundered cleaning rags & Windex. The general paradigm is, start by picking up large objects, then work downward from the highest surfaces to the floor, then sweep or vacuum, then wipe down the tables & counters with Windex. While this is going on, another person can wash dishes, for which we need a supply of dish soap, a scrubbing brush, and a supply of clean sponges. This can be done by a crew of from 2 - 4 people surprisingly quickly. I'm told that the upright vacuum isn't working. Repairing vacuums is relatively easy, though if parts are needed (e.g. replace broken suction fan impeller) that may be an issue. Next time I'm around with my tools I'll take a look at it. -G. ===== On 13-05-16-Thu 7:17 AM, Romy Ilano wrote: > If we pay people for beer, if we buy burritos then why is it wrong to pay someone to clean? > Could we pay for a small family owned immigrant cleaning business to clean the common room and the space ? > I do not see sudo room getting into a cleaning skill set in the near future and that is ok > --- > Romy Ilano > Founder of Snowyla > http://www.snowyla.com > romy(a)snowyla.com > _______________________________________________ > sudo-discuss mailing list > sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss >_______________________________________________ >sudo-discuss mailing list &gt;sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org >http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss

hi romy, i really appreciate your continuing the discussion on the topic of keeping our common area clean, but i was quite offended by you saying "Could we pay for a small family owned immigrant cleaning business." i'm really not sure why you suggested that it could specifically be an immigrant business... it's hard for me to see a reason for you suggesting this that doesn't involve stereotypes about who does what kind of labor in our society. if i've completely misunderstood or if you'd like more details about my perspective, let's talk offthread. i think that this speaks to my larger discomfort with suggestions about paying people to clean our space. part of what we are doing at sudo room is learning how to cooperatively manage a resource - something that many of us (myself included) have had limited experience doing. from my perspective, part of this learning process is learning how to keep things clean so that we can all use them and enjoy the space and not alienate our landlord. i think there's a tendency in our society to start paying other people to do "unpleasant" or "crappy" necessary work when we have the financial means to do so and this is all based on ideas about what's "crappy" work and how much people should be paid to do this crappy work (the answer is usually cheaply...as if it's not worth a lot to clean, take care of children, prepare food, and do other things that our society has considered "crappy" at different times in history). but we can choose to reorient our conception of cleaning from "crappy work that no one wants to do" to "we are learning how to work together to manage a resource that is for all of our benefit." with that perspective, keeping the space clean becomes less of a problem to solve and more of an interesting question - how do we take a bunch of people with different ideas about "clean" and different feelings about their responsibility to the space and create the conditions that help everyone feel ownership of the space to the point where it becomes apparent that maintaining it is a key part of keeping it usable? and what kinds of mechanisms can we use to help people participate in maintenance of the space? not everybody is interested in that kind of challenge, but if we hope to have longevity in our community, it seems like it's something that we have to address... plus we don't have any extra money for cleaning services right now :P at this point we can have a long discussion about paying people, labor, etc., and i would be happy to discuss this with people offthread, but i think that if we hope to continue the discussion onthread, we should be addressing 1) advantages and disadvantages of paying someone vs creating community solutions for keeping the space clean and 2) ideas for mechanisms (such as sunday night clean) that would help people easily plug in to keeping the space clean. - marina On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 7:17 AM, Romy Ilano &lt;romy(a)snowyla.com&gt; wrote:

That analogy doesn't make sense. Sudo Room does not pay for beer or burrito, never has. No one has been reimbursed for food or booze by Sudo Room officially as far as I know. I think that for the most part the cleaning has been fine. The only problem we have is with the land lord complaining. *The problem is with the land lord, not Sudo Room*. Either *he* pays for a cleaning service, or he lets the people who pay for office space there decide how, and how much we want to clean. Period. --Andrew -- ------- Andrew Lowe Cell: 831-332-2507 http://roshambomedia.com

You might already know this; Japanese schools have no janitors or cleaning staff; teachers, administrators and students all clean up their schools. The following excerpt cites cooperation, responsibility and valued member in a community as benefits of this practice of Souji. Here is the excerpt. It's from an article on life in Japanese schools ( http://factsanddetails.com/japan.php?itemid=830) *Souji* ("honorable cleaning") is a period of about 15 minutes each day when all activities come to a stop, mops and buckets appears and everyone pitches in cleaning up. Often the teachers and principals get on their hands and knees and join students. Japanese schools don't have any janitors because the students and staff do all the cleaning. Students in elementary school, middle school, and high school sweep the hall floors after lunch and before they go home at the end of the day. They also clean the windows, scrub the toilets and empty the trash cans under the supervision of student leaders. During lunchtime, sometimes donning hairnets, students help serve the meals and clear away dishes. A member of the Board of Education in a town in Hokkaido told U.S. News and World Report, “Education is not only teaching subjects but also cooperation with others, ethics, a sense of responsibility, and public morality. Doing chores contributes to this. Besides, if students make a mess, they know they have to clean it up. So naturally they try to keep things clean.” “Cleaning is just one of a web of activities that signal to children that they are valued members of a community,” Christopher Bjork, an educational anthropologist at Vasser Collage told U.S. News and World Report. I also wanted to share a story. I once worked at one of the most well funded public schools in the Bay Area. My students for the most part lived in a world of nannys, house cleaners, gardeners, and Personal coaches. I was closest with the janitor at the school because our jobs were essentially the same - he cleaned up physical messes and I cleaned up technology messes. One day I was rushing off to my class, when a mother and her son pointed out that I was spilling the remains of my lunch down the hallway. The mother seeing my haste added, "don't worry about it; the janitor will clean that up." i was personally mortified. And i made a point of cleaning up my own mess in front of the students. I think a clearly outlined list of each rooms cleaning needs split among all participants in an event could clean our space with very little effort. 15 minutes from 20 people is 5 person-hours of work. I would be happy to organize such lists and present it at our next meeting. Perhaps these lists already exist. In any event they are a good thing to develop and communicate to George. Cheers, Raymond Lai Ice Cream Man Atomic Ice Cream Facebook.com/MotoAtomico On May 16, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Marina Kukso &lt;marina.kukso(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: agreed with andrew. - marina On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Andrew &lt;andrew(a)roshambomedia.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss

The problem is that I thought that the cigarette smoke and the pile of crap next to the shop-vac appeared not to be from sudo, along with the furniture being all whacky, but even that I couldn't prove because people were coming in and out of our space into the common room. So, nobody cleans up, and nobody is accountable.

Oh man we should have lunch helmets